Posted on 11/29/2001 10:29:12 AM PST by A.J.Armitage
Jim Robinson posted Is Free Republic a Fraud? Is it time for Free Republic to go away? this was my reply, which wasn't really "on topic", given what he said in his article, but I think the problem I discuss is worth talking about. Maybe it's just growing pains with all the new people coming in, but even then, I think we ought to talk about it.
In an important sense, Free Republic already has gone away. Too many people here, especially the newbies but also some of the ones from way back, use Free Republic for shouting their love and support of what every violation of freedom anyone can think up. Secret military tribunals, not just for bin Laden but also for people in the United States? You're a traitor if you disagree. The Patriot Act? You're paranoid if you don't think it's just fine. If Bill Clinton had proposed this stuff, we'd have people on here talking about armed revolution. The fact that we're at war doesn't mean we should hand ourselves over, blindfold, to those with an interest in betraying us. The federal government is still what it was before September 11, and (I know this will be more unwelcome, but it's still the truth) it's still what it was when Clinton was in office. Human nature is what it is and politicians, even republican ones, are politicians. Any question of any real improvement having been made by changing the president has been settled by the ignoble exploitation of the attack to get more power for themselves.
It isn't so much that so many here are outright enemies of freedom, it's the unreasoning quality of it. Anything from certain sites, or by certain people (including, bizarrely, Ron Paul) is immediately set upon by people who seem incapable of using anything but ad hominem arguments. These people seem to see no distinction between believing in freedom and being a communist or a liberal or a member of the taliban or whatever pops into their heads. Not only is this bad in itself, it poisons the whole forum. The more of it goes on, the less rational discussion goes on. This sort of thing happened before, but it's choking off good discussion. Another thing polluting the forum is that the newbies are often carrying in bad habits from other forums or chat rooms. For example, I've seen people write "R" for "are". Some of them just aren't that good at writing English. Too many people use all-caps instead of arguments.
Sure, this stuff happened before, but it's a lot worse now.
I don't think it's so much the attack, although that made it worse (the nuke 'em all crowd and suchlike), as it is the fact that people let their guards down when Bush got elected. How many of the people exulting over every new government power would have the attitude with Clinton in office? Few or none, I would venture. Why did we hate Clinton, anyway? Because he was the kind of person to exploit tragedies to expand his power? So, it turns out, is Bush. He had a fascist Attorney General? Well, congratulations, now we have a mere authoritarian. Does anyone doubt that Ashcroft would've treated Elian the same way Reno did? But I suppose that would be fine, so long as the kid's taken by our jack-booted thugs. Did we go through the whole election thing just to get the privilege of having the same policies Clinton or Gore would've enacted pushed through by someone with an R after his name? The bill's the same, but the person signing it hasn't slept with the interns, so we're happy? Was it all about the sex after all?
Do we have anything that we really stand for, or are we here to be cheerleaders for Bush?
Freepers have largely given up the fight for freedom, or were never involved in fighting for freedom in the first place and just joined recently so they could cheer each new chain. I'm afraid we won't get the old Free Republic back until there's a democrat in office. But why don't we like the democrats? Is it really nothing more than the reason people in Chicago don't like the Packers? That kind of political activism is more than a little hollow. There has to be some set of principles that we hold even our own to, or there really is no reason for us to exist. If we're that destitute of principles, not even principles but just plain thoughts of our own, we really don't have a reason to exist. Not just Free Republic, but the whole Right. If we give up on the idea of freedom this easily, we might as well hand over the country to the Left. Why not? They're winning anyway, and Bush is helping them do it. Look at all the new democrats coming in over the border. Unless things change pretty radically, there won't be anything worthwhile left in 20 years. Maybe we should just give up, then. If there was somewhere else, we might go there when things break down too much here, but there isn't. Why not, then? As it stands now, they won, not just America, but humanity. Just have a good time, don't care, munch your grass like a good little sheep, and hope things get better a few hundred years from now.
Maybe things will look better in the morning.
While I'm at it, I'll reply to some of the replies in the original thread.
To WIMom:
If FR is so bad, why do you stay? (I'm not flaming, but really want to know)
I suppose you could say it's the bits of the old Free Republic. But, I'm not sure everyone, even the old timers, would recognize what I have in mind by that. There's always been a lot of crap. I ignored it; you have to take is as a given on any internet forum. But now there's so much more of it.
At it's worst, Free Republic is no worse than the surrounding political culture. Maybe any sanctuary of rational discussion is bound to get inundated eventually, but that's a grim future to imagine for my beloved Free Republic: a cleaned up version of the Usenet. No porn, no spam, people get kicked out, but no higher level of intellectual discussion. Maybe it can be turned around (if I didn't think so, I'd probably leave). Maybe it'll turn around on it's own after the air clears.
I'll tell you my ambition for Free Republic in the far future. If a scholar hundreds of years from now had only Free Republic, he could construct a fairly good history of our civilization, after sorting all the chaos typical of the internet out. Even if he had other sources, Free Republic would still be very worthwhile, the same way collections of pamphlets from earlier times are. But there's more: there are threads I've participated in, and some I've just read, that are worthwhile not for their historical content but for their philosophical content, if I can put it so grandly. The discussions are of course almost all about political philosophy. These are threads worth reading for your own edification.
I'm afraid it all might get buried under typical internet crap, to the point that people in the future ignore the whole thing, which would be a great loss.
To WileyCoyote22:
I think the tribunals ae needed. They sure arn't going to put you or I up there. So whats the beef with that rant ?
It's not just that. It's the tribunals and the Patriot Act and the fact that the public, including far too many here, call for more.
You also fail to even know what War times is and that W has done nothing more than what FDR did.
That's not a high standard.
To Dan from Michigan:
Never say die.
Yeah, I guess so. I just don't see how I can do any good if the whole forum is swamped with these people.
To Howlin:
Get over yourself, will you? I've been here longer than you have and I have seen it come and go; just because we all don't agree with you doesn't mean WE are wrong.
If I'm wrong, tell me why. If we never get past who's saying it to what's being said, no one will ever be persuaded, and all we'll ever have is personal attacks.
To Lucius Cornelius Sulla:
I hate to say it, but thanks for making my point for me.
Things which once would have been crucial, and needed debating must be put aside until our lives have been made secure.
You're wrong. It's precisely now that defending freedom is most important, because now is the time it's most under attack. That many, such as you, would like to give the politicians a blank check makes it even more important.
If you really think that there is no difference between the Clinton/Gore/Reno administration and the Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft administration you have allowed disagreement over policy to drive you into the arms of the bin Laden supporters.
Yeah, I've converted to Islam because I don't like Bush's policy. Or maybe bin Laden was really all worked up by the fact that our Constitution is being ignored.
In a war there is a front line, and the opposition front line. I am on the side of President Bush and the American people. Up to now, I had thought that you were there also.
This kind of attitude is part of the problem I'm talking about.
If you have any relevant examples that might applied to those called up in service as militia (as my comment origionally stated), then just say so.
There was a Road Runner cartoon when Wiley Coyote (?sp) caught the Road Runner. He held up a sign theat said something to the effect of "I caught him. Now what do I do?" In a sense, it is the same on FR "We won, now what do we do/who do we fight?"
That is not true for many of the people who have been here far longer than me, but I do notice it nonetheless.
It's the tribunals and the Patriot Act and the fact that the public, including far too many here, call for more.
This is where debate is healthy. I am a full supporter of the Military Tribunals. Not the Patriot Act. I am also bothered by those who would willingly sacrifice more in the name of safety. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however, what bothers me is that some refuse to look at the big picture or to debate the issue. I am not as articulate as many are around here, in fact, many times I tend to talk in circles. But FR seems to be the only place where true politcal debate occurs. If you home is like mine, it is one thing for everyone to sit around and talk about what a scum bucket bubba was, but no one wants to talk politics. I've been called the closet leftist liberal in my family because of my concerns about the Patriot Act. We elected Clinton twice. As a nation, we are not that smart.....we can elect someone like him again & again.
However, this is a wonderful place to learn. I've learned many things from many fine people. I've learned breaking news several days before it hits the mainstream media. I am free to make an utter fool out of myself & occaisionaly I might even say something extrodinarily intelligent. Is this a great forum or what?
What a gang of imbeciles.
As I remember the story from more than 30 years ago, what happenned is that the Bill of Rights was presented as a petition and most people wouldn't sign it (especially that dratty 2nd amendment, you know).
There is of course no justification whatsoever for the statement that I would support ANY measures deemed expedient. As far as LC Sulla is concerned, your summary of his career is essentially correct, if oversimplified. I have gone into this before, (I guess I should get around to putting in on my FR Homepage), so I will only briefly outline my reasoning.
Sulla took drastic steps to try to restore the traditional Roman republic. He put in place what became known as the 'Sullan Constitution', which tried to codify his ideas. The decay of this Constitution occurred during the final collapse of the Republic. Sulla was the last Dictator to do what the Romans felt was required in this office, which was to retire from the government after a brief term in office. The next and last Dictator was Julius Caesar, who did not retire, as we know.
I chose the name because I believe that our American Republic is at a parallel point, that is, in its dying days. That reform is likely to fail, and even drastic efforts are unlikely to save our Free Republic.
That is right, the only one's fighting an outright war against the American people are the terrorists, a war in which you are on the same side as the Taliban, that is, on the side which is against President Bush.
To remind you, a war is characterized by an intent to kill one's opponents. You have made it clear that you consider that you are in a war against the Commander in Chief of the American nation. When it comes to spilling blood, I will do what I can do to see that it is not the President whose life is lost.
Polish his shoes while you're down there groveling.
WWII is the closest example to the kind of war we are now fighting. I was simply pointing out what happens in a war to those, whether regular army, organized militia, or unorganized militia, who does not follow the orders of their officers. Which is to say should you be drafted (and a resumption of the draft is becoming more likely every day), and should act in the way you said, this is exactly what will be done to you. If you think that your fate is irrelevant, who am I to disagree.
No thanks to your continual cheerleading for a war on the American people by the government.
a war in which you are on the same side as the Taliban, that is, on the side which is against President Bush.
Yet more confirmation that you are a fascist.
To remind you, a war is characterized by an intent to kill one's opponents. You have made it clear that you consider that you are in a war against the Commander in Chief of the American nation. When it comes to spilling blood, I will do what I can do to see that it is not the President whose life is lost.
You're a liar and a jackass. Quote where I said that.
You are also a liar and a jackass for saying the president is commander in chief of the American nation, rather than armed forces.
Yes. And the Founders tried VERY hard to create a form of government that would keep it that way, with all the checks, balances and limits of power that the Constitution provides. Unfortunately, we have squandered what many of them gave their lives and fortunes to create.
No, but when you are being inducted, following being called up in the draft, either you will take the oath, making him your commander in chief, or you will not, in which case you will spend a decade or two in the slammer.
Indeed it does. Thanks.
LOL!!!
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