St Paul foresaw Islam; warned against Preterism

St Paul, after his conversion in Damascus, spent a period in exile in Arabia. This is usually given as five years; surely it was between 3 and 7 years. The reason given for this period of study, meditation, and contemplation is usually that he had a price on his head set by the religious authorities in Jerusalem on account of his conversion to Christianity in AD 37. Conventionally, he is said to have re-emerged from Arabia to live in Antioch (present Antakya in Turkey at NE corner of the Med) for the next period of his life, using it as a base for his famous missionary journeys and then (in 59-60) saying farewell to it forever when he was sent to Rome as a prisoner.

It is because of Paul's experience in Arabia that he is able to tell us that Sinai, the Mount of God, is located there, not in the so-called Sinai Peninsula of Egypt. He also visited Mecca, which even then was the shining star of the entire Arab people and peninsula, home of the shrines and mystery cults to the goddesses of the Moon and Venus; even then centered at the Black Stone of the Ka'aba, the Stone that Fell Down From Venus.

We know that this cult is very ancient, and from the point of view of the Jews, very Satanic. Some 4000 years ago, Abraham's first-born son, Ishmael, had become a priest of that cult, and he lived out his days as such there in Mecca. This despite Abraham's visiting him there to try to talk him into returning to worship of YHWH. The prophet Daniel, writing in the sixth century BC (yes, yes, I know the rabbinic committees kept redacting him, deleting material, revising...until BC 162, but that is a purely literary process. The prophet died in 529 or 519 BC, according to two differing traditions.)...Daniel called this cult the Abomination of Desolation, or the Abomination that will Make (the Land) Desolate...for by its murder and lawlessness it will cause the depopulation of the Land...

Jesus tells his incredulous listeners on the Mt of Olives that this desert abomination of the Arabs would be set up right there, right before their eyes as it were, on the Temple Mount! This happened after the Islamic conquest of 638, the Dome of the Rock's dedication in 691, and el-Aqsa's dedication in 707. As Jesus said, Christians were to flee for their lives from the land when they saw this. In 638, 4 million persons lived in Israel. In 1798, when Napoleon visited he found just 45,000 persons living in the entire country, two-thirds of those in the city of Jerusalem, and all desperately poor. The Abomination had caused the Desolation.

Even now, that Abomination still stands in the Holy Place in the person of the Dome, showing Christians that (A) they are not to seek to domicile themselves in that Land, in fact they are to flee it for their lives!...and (B) that the Times of the Gentiles, also known as the Indignation or Wrath of God, against Israel in this world for its sins, is not yet over. Yet that wrath is someday to end, someday soon. The prophetic numbers are given, but that is another subject.

In 2 Thess 2, Paul having returned from Mecca tells us that (a) the Mecca cult, also known as the Mystery of Iniquity, was already in operation, up and running. No one restrained it from taking over the World, except the Roman (European) power, and no one but that power ever would restrain it. When that power (of Rome) was taken out of the way, then the Man of Sin (Mohammed) would be revealed, the son of perdition, whose cult would set itself up in the place of God, and show itself off to the entire world as if it WERE God. Never would we be entirely free of the Mecca cult, Paul warns, until the Second Coming of Jesus, at which time the brightness of Jesus' coming would destroy it. We can know that Jesus has not returned, the eschaton has not happened, because Mecca still flaunts its demonic self in God's place.

Paul thus warns us explicitly against preterism, for he says that fraudulent letters in his name and those of the other apostles, were already circulating in his own day, to the effect that the Second Coming would occur in that time (1st Cent) or even already Had Occurred! (!)

But Paul will have none of it. No, no, he says, the End will not come until there is a falling away (from truth and religious observance, on the part of Christians and Jews) and that Man of Sin (Mohammed) been revealed, the final display of whose cult we may not yet have seen, for some teach that the Black Stone will actually be brought from Mecca and placed there on God's mountain, along with His White Stone.

May that not occur, may the Mecca Cult speedily be brought down in our days, May the Temple speedily be rebuilt in our days, and May the Prophecies speedily all be fulfilled in our days, is my prayer.

PS. In Rev. 3, Jesus tells us (but specifically the Eastern (orthodox) churches, who dwell there facing the Mecca cult, where Satan's seat is...that if they can overcome it, Jesus will give them a share in His Own White Stone, the eben shetiya atop the Temple Mount-- a dramatic contrast with Satan's Black Stone in Mecca.

I appreciate biblical speculation. When we engage in it, however, it is best to very clearly spell out that it is speculation, i.e., the opinion of the writer.

There are some strengths to your speculation.

1. The attempt to explain the "abomination of desolation."
2. An additional attempt to explain the "time of the Gentiles."
3. The gutting of preterism with Paul's warning believers NOT to believe the event had occurred in his day and would not until man of sin revealed.

There are also weaknesses.

1. There simply is no evidence that Paul ever visited Mecca. Just because he visited Arabia is no reason to assume he visited Mecca.
2. The Temple did not exist for Mohammed to "sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is god."
3. The mystical play with "black stone/white stone" is not mentioned in scripture. Any attempt to assume a direct interpretation from Revelation is just that: an assumption/speculation.

I do commend you on your efforts to piece together the puzzle. I encourage you to continue looking and rearranging the pieces. Your theory, in its present form, isn't quite there yet.

millions in Indonesia alone,

Millions of Christians have not been killed in Indonesia, and Vietnam does not support a Muslim community aside from the extremely limited Chams (Vietnam is 80 percent Confucian Buddhist).

In Indonesia, anti-Christian sentiment is largely anti-Chinese resentment, because the vast majority of business there is and has been dominated by ethnic Chinese Christians. The Timor slaughters have been tribal rivalries for the most part. And Vietnam is not "killing Christians," though repression exists due to Christianity's perceived "competition" with the government's Cult Of Ho Chi Minh (not to mention Lenin and Marx).

Yet even though you've made some factual errors here, I do agree that Islam is inherently a violent, anti-Everything death cult that seeks global domination. It's adherents say as much, as does the Koran.

Works for me. I think the interpretative summary is well stated.

As I said, I think a revived Roman empire fulfillment, rather than Islamic fulfillment, best fits the entirety of biblical prohecy. Ishmael and his progeny seem to receive minor attention, especially in Daniel's interpretation of the future kingdoms and Israel's relationship with God.

I abhor persecution of Christians by Islam, or any other religion or non-religion (atheism/communism) for that matter, but such hostility towards Jesus and His followers is not ipso facto a basis for identifying them with the prophecies concerning antichrist. The Bible tells us to expect persecution from a variety of sources -- worldwide.

There is lots of interesting history re: the religions of the Arabian tribes between the 4 and 6th centuries.. Some fascinating stuff about Dilmun, Dedan, the Najrans, the Jewish Kings of Yemen, the Jews of Yatrib and the Christian invaders from Etheiopia. I think its very exciting that archeology has really opened up since 1974 with regard to pre-Islamic culture there. I expect the findings will dovetail with the stories of the OT.

Because that church, Pergamum, represents Eastern Orthodoxy

Thanks for your input. I will have to do some research on that, I find it very interesting. I have read more than once that the church of Laodecia represents the Catholic Church. Now dont' get me wrong I am not saying it is, it's just that I have read that from different sources. What is your take on that ?

In 2 Thess 2, Paul having returned from Mecca tells us that ....

No, Paul most assuredly does not "tell us: anything at all about Mecca. For those who want to read for themselves, poke here.

There's no discussion about the "Cult of Mecca" at all -- instead, there's an allusion to what is usually called the Anti-Christ. What I do see, is you trying to fob off on us an anti-Islam screed diguised as Biblical exegesis.

Interestingly, Paul leads that chapter off with this:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

An interesting couterpoint to a commentary that assures us, Yet that wrath is someday to end, someday soon. The prophetic numbers are given, but that is another subject.

Perhaps you should take Paul's warning to heart.....

Already answered in previous post. The Roman Catholic church is represented by the Church of Thyatira.

Laodicea might represent any smug, rich, liberal church today that has little faith and cares less. Typically that would be non-Catholic, but like all 7 messages, if the shoe fits a specific individual's situation, let him wear it, but overall these are 7 periods in church history, and the organizations founded in those periods, still with us today.

If there were anything to your argument, then the End could NEVER come at all, for Paul's warning that it would not come in HIS times would then be applied in OUR times as well --like you want to do to me, saying it could not be in OUR times-- thus, it could never, never, come in ANYBODY's times, for Paul's statement would still be there on the page, saying it wasn't coming.(!)

I hope you didn't mean this to be a serious contribution to the discussion. The Times of the Gentiles, aka Church Age, aka Indignation, are ending very, very soon.

You don't have to tell ME, but ask yourself this thought question about your conventional 666 birthmark, born in Rome, "Omen" idea of Antichrist-- just what would it take to change your mind? In favor of the coming oriental/islamic antichrist I foresee? Just what events would make you reconsider?

In the immortal words of Nostradamus in re his 3d antichrist, (the one we are talking about)..."So long awaited he will never reappear/in Europe; in Asia he will appear, one of the league issued from Hermes, and beyond all the kings of the Easts his power will ascend..."

It is as likely that Paul visited Mecca, as it is that Frances Trollope visited Cleveland or Philadelphia. What city or center of interest existed in Arabia BUT Mecca?

The little PS about the white and black stones, I seriously considered omitting it for the very reason that someone like you would think it had something to do with my thesis or argument, rather than just a special commendation of Jesus to the Orthodox faithful, so badly needed at this hour...

"sitteth in the PLACE of God, showing himself that he IS God." might be the better translation, which this version does have. The Dome of the Rock is sitting in God's temple today. That temple is not a building, but the holy place itself, and Jews would have no problem understanding this clearly in the way I do.

Not really. Even in the 5% chance that Paul never visited Mecca, he certainly would have heard of it. He was a very educated and learned man, and it was THE pagan site in Arabia for worship, pilgrimage, cult prostitution and mystery cults of every sort. A virtual supermarket and permanent Worlds Fair of the demonic.

PS Isn't it still? If non-Muslims could go there, I probably would have gone to see the Haj myself!

In no sense would my argument be diminished if Paul had got no closer to Mecca than an armchair in (Damascus?) what other city in Arabia even EXISTED then? Where do YOU think he spent the 5 years?

This conventional boilerplate may have some merit to quote here to those not familiar with it, but Jesus was clearly referring to some dramatic future event (or events)--the Roman eagles were there in His own day--nothing remarkable about THAT!

As to the destruction of Jerusalem, remember that a careful reader can parse the Little Apocalypse as to which event (the A of D/eschatological event) or the 70 AD event, each clause refers to! This was done as an exercise in my own NT classes many years ago!

About the 70 AD event, Jesus can be somewhat lackadaisical...hope it isn't in the winter or on the Sabbath, implying that one might just wait for better weather or another day of the week...and then one is just told to leave the city, and let him that is not in the city not enter it...everything is cool, relaxed!

But the A of D is another thing. The believer is ORDERED to panic! He is told to flee for his life, not even come back to get his coat or credit cards, just run for his life to any place in the world he could get to! When I see the Dome of the Rock (the visible A of D) that is just what I want to do! Get out of there, and back to alabammy!

When Ishmael was cast out and God said that his decendants would forever be against the world and the world against them, like a wild donkey. The clans that eventually became what we know today as "Arabs" were called Ishmaelites at that time. This is not just religion, it's historical fact.

Nobody, not scientist, historian or scholar can deny the truth of this uncanny prophesy in genesis. I challenge you to find any prediction, from any text (religious or otherwise) that has held so true, for so long.

It kind of takes your breath away when you really think about it.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.