Posted on 11/27/2001 5:15:03 PM PST by crystalk
II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
These scriptures don't seem to line up with your speculations. But maybe Islam will be just a part of the "end" plan of God. have you ever wondered about verses like this?:
Amos 5:18-19
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
We are warned of deception over and over. Islam is the very clear enemy of Christianity. Where's the deception? How's this for a theory- Islam does play a part in the end, but doesn't hang around very long.
I've got to run and do some work, but if you don't flame me too hard I'll come back and back-up what I've started.
You are misreading the Bible
10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.
12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.
Isaiah is mentioning several places, not just Kedar. He mentions the coastlines and the islands. The "inhabitants of the rock" in verse 11 is thought to refer to Sela (Edom).
Isaiah is essentially saying "from the sea to the desert." You just pick out the desert.
Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands.
Very clever of you to change "islands" to "inlands."
Forty two months is 1278.34 days. Using a day for a year, 1278years equals the time period between the setting up of the dome of the rock and the liberation of Jerusalem in 1967. 1967-1278.34=688.66
Approaching from the other direction in time we have this;Fromthe time that the daily sacrifices were taken away during Daniels time, 583BC to the time that the abomination that makes desolate was set up was 1290 days. Using again days equals years, and converting babylonian years to our solar years;1290 x.9857=1271.5 solar years.583BC + 1271.5=688.5. That is fairly substantial to conjecture that the dome of the rock could in fact be the AoD.
They also built it right in the middle of the court of the gentiles as Rev.11:2 says
I am very glad your ilk no longer can burn at the stake those of us who do think out of the box, and BTW that is one reason Christianity is more viable than the Mecca cult, which still murders its independent and creative classes.
This monster has nothing in common with Jesus and you are being blasphemous beyond words.
No, I just think you're spouting a line of bull to justify your dislike of Islam.
Of course he wasn't. He was referring to several places, Kedar being only one of them. The "Islands" in the Bible usually mean the area of Greece.
This passage in Isaiah refers to Arabia as only one of several places. It does not seem to be a prophecy about Islam.
As to what Paul was doing? Prior to his conversion he was a leaarned OT schollar and a pupil of Gamalliel. After he reemerges he displays a revised theology in light of His reassessment of Jesus, his Messiah. Easily he could have spent the time alone in reassessing the Old Testament texts, prophecies, etc. in light of his new found faith.
I do not see Paul as a tourist out to see the sights. Rather he is a man experiencing the reorientation of his world life view.
What if the destruction of Babylon were the beginning of the "end". People have always had the tendency to oversimplify Biblical prophecy. The events of the end will take place over a period of time. Read Matt. 24 carefully. There are 2 different greek words translated "end".
Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (4930) of the world?
4930 sunteleia (soon-tel'-i-ah);from 4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):
Vine's states: "sunteleia ^4930^ signifies "a bringing to completion together" (sun "with," teleo, "to complete," akin to No. 1), marking the "completion" or consummation of the various parts of a scheme. In , the rendering "the end of the world" (KJV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax. Aion is not the world, but a period or epoch or era in which events take place."
Matt 24:4-6
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end (5056) is not yet.
5056 telos (tel'-os);from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose);
"End" from verse 3 is a period of time while "end" from verse 6 is the actual point in time that is the literal end. When Jesus says "the end is not yet" it doesn't mean that what he is describing is not part of the time of the "end" or "sunteleia"- in fact he is answering the question. All that he descibes is part of the end.
Matt 24:7-8
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows (5604).
5604 odin (o-deen');akin to 3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth:
The turmoil of the time of the end is compared to the pains of childbirth. Notice this word used in 1Thes.5:3:
1Thes 5:3
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
This is also what Isaiah spoke of:
Isa 66:5-9
5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
The Messiah Jesus is the man child of verse 7, the travail or pain will be the time of the end- the worst time in the history of the earth- "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). What is this nation that will be brought forth throught this pain? The Kingdom of God:
Dan 2:42-45
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The whole Bible points to this time. This will be a time of great deception, great apostacy, great tribulation, and great reward for those "who know their God" (Dan. 11:32)and stand firm. I believe that a strong case can be made that this time will begin with one earth changing event- the destruction of "Babylon" by the ten horns of the beast of Rev.17.
Jer 50:46
46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations.
Rev 18:8-10
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.,
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Before I get flamed let me back this up a little bit. We know that mystery Babylon from Rev. 17&18 is destroyed by the 10 horns of the beast. Many people assume that this Babylon is the kingdom of the antichrist. This is scripturally imposible. Daniel explains this very clearly and repeats himself 3 times to make it very clear:
Dan 7:7
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Read and study all of Daniel 7. This 4th beast comprised of 10 horns is the same as Rev.17 and the 10 toes in Dan.2. If you count the heads in Daniel 7 you will notice there are 7. This is all very consistent. Notice in the above verse that this 4th beast is in power when it has 10 horns. Most people focus on the little horn that comes up later but Daniel is very clear- when this beast rises and takes control of the earth it is made up of 10 horns. The little horn is not in power yet. When he comes to power he "uproots" 3 of the original horns of the 10. This is very clear- mystery Babylon of Rev.17&18 is destroyed by the 10 horns of the beast. When the little horn of Dan.7 comes to power he uproots 3 of the original 10 horns. If this is true then the antichrist rises after mystery Babylon is destroyed. Daniel makes this clear:
Dan 7:7-8
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:16-27
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
So here you have a rough outline to build on: the great harlot is destroyed in "one hour" by the ten horns who take power over the whole earth. At some point after that the "little horn" uproots 3 of the ten and assumes control. In this simple outline you have 2 different major shifts in world power in "the end". Notice that mystery Babylon is destroyed in one hour and the 10 horns have power for one hour (Rev.17:12). This leads me to believe that the 10 horns fulfill God's will by destroying Babylon and then almost immediately the AC rises and uproots the 3. Digest that, there is much more.
I don't know what that means. It is not in the Bible and rabbis are not prophets.
I DO know that the passage "inhabitants of the rock" in the KJV is most likely a mis-translation. The Jewish scholars who wrote the Septuagint translated the Hebrew word "sela" as "rock," which it does literally mean. However, not being historians or geographers, they may have not realized that there was once a city called Sela, (known in Roman times as Petra) the ancient capital of Edom. So the passage should read "the inhabitants of Petra."
Isaiah refers to several places in which "new things" would be happening: Europe and Edom, as well as Arabia.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.