St Paul foresaw Islam; warned against Preterism

Biible and myself | 27 Nov 2001 | myself

[Slyfox]

In 2 Thess 2, Paul having returned from Mecca tells us that (a) the Mecca cult,
also known as the Mystery of Iniquity, was already in operation, up and running.

Huh, is that why Clinton was so nice to Osama?

[xzins]

I appreciate biblical speculation. When we engage in it, however, it is best to very clearly spell out that it is speculation, i.e., the opinion of the writer.

There are some strengths to your speculation.

1. The attempt to explain the "abomination of desolation."
2. An additional attempt to explain the "time of the Gentiles."
3. The gutting of preterism with Paul's warning believers NOT to believe the event had occurred in his day and would not until man of sin revealed.

There are also weaknesses.

1. There simply is no evidence that Paul ever visited Mecca. Just because he visited Arabia is no reason to assume he visited Mecca.
2. The Temple did not exist for Mohammed to "sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is god."
3. The mystical play with "black stone/white stone" is not mentioned in scripture. Any attempt to assume a direct interpretation from Revelation is just that: an assumption/speculation.

I do commend you on your efforts to piece together the puzzle. I encourage you to continue looking and rearranging the pieces. Your theory, in its present form, isn't quite there yet.

[angkor]

millions in Indonesia alone,

Millions of Christians have not been killed in Indonesia, and Vietnam does not support a Muslim community aside from the extremely limited Chams (Vietnam is 80 percent Confucian Buddhist).

In Indonesia, anti-Christian sentiment is largely anti-Chinese resentment, because the vast majority of business there is and has been dominated by ethnic Chinese Christians. The Timor slaughters have been tribal rivalries for the most part. And Vietnam is not "killing Christians," though repression exists due to Christianity's perceived "competition" with the government's Cult Of Ho Chi Minh (not to mention Lenin and Marx).

Yet even though you've made some factual errors here, I do agree that Islam is inherently a violent, anti-Everything death cult that seeks global domination. It's adherents say as much, as does the Koran.

[drstevej]

Works for me. I think the interpretative summary is well stated.

As I said, I think a revived Roman empire fulfillment, rather than Islamic fulfillment, best fits the entirety of biblical prohecy. Ishmael and his progeny seem to receive minor attention, especially in Daniel's interpretation of the future kingdoms and Israel's relationship with God.

I abhor persecution of Christians by Islam, or any other religion or non-religion (atheism/communism) for that matter, but such hostility towards Jesus and His followers is not ipso facto a basis for identifying them with the prophecies concerning antichrist. The Bible tells us to expect persecution from a variety of sources -- worldwide.

[Patria One]

There is lots of interesting history re: the religions of the Arabian tribes between the 4 and 6th centuries.. Some fascinating stuff about Dilmun, Dedan, the Najrans, the Jewish Kings of Yemen, the Jews of Yatrib and the Christian invaders from Etheiopia. I think its very exciting that archeology has really opened up since 1974 with regard to pre-Islamic culture there. I expect the findings will dovetail with the stories of the OT.

[aomagrat]

Very interesting.

[DreamWeaver]

Because that church, Pergamum, represents Eastern Orthodoxy

Thanks for your input. I will have to do some research on that, I find it very interesting. I have read more than once that the church of Laodecia represents the Catholic Church. Now dont' get me wrong I am not saying it is, it's just that I have read that from different sources. What is your take on that ?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the insight!

[r9etb]

In 2 Thess 2, Paul having returned from Mecca tells us that ....

No, Paul most assuredly does not "tell us: anything at all about Mecca. For those who want to read for themselves, poke here.

There's no discussion about the "Cult of Mecca" at all -- instead, there's an allusion to what is usually called the Anti-Christ. What I do see, is you trying to fob off on us an anti-Islam screed diguised as Biblical exegesis.

Interestingly, Paul leads that chapter off with this:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

An interesting couterpoint to a commentary that assures us, Yet that wrath is someday to end, someday soon. The prophetic numbers are given, but that is another subject.

Perhaps you should take Paul's warning to heart.....

[crystalk]

Already answered in previous post. The Roman Catholic church is represented by the Church of Thyatira.

Laodicea might represent any smug, rich, liberal church today that has little faith and cares less. Typically that would be non-Catholic, but like all 7 messages, if the shoe fits a specific individual's situation, let him wear it, but overall these are 7 periods in church history, and the organizations founded in those periods, still with us today.

[crystalk]

Obviously, you are an expert on Vietnam, and I was unaware I had even mentioned it.

Just delete it, and add Albania, to my list...maybe Turkey too...Palestine and Lebanon, if I didn't include them...Syria, Iraq, etc.

[crystalk]

If there were anything to your argument, then the End could NEVER come at all, for Paul's warning that it would not come in HIS times would then be applied in OUR times as well --like you want to do to me, saying it could not be in OUR times-- thus, it could never, never, come in ANYBODY's times, for Paul's statement would still be there on the page, saying it wasn't coming.(!)

I hope you didn't mean this to be a serious contribution to the discussion. The Times of the Gentiles, aka Church Age, aka Indignation, are ending very, very soon.

[crystalk]

You don't have to tell ME, but ask yourself this thought question about your conventional 666 birthmark, born in Rome, "Omen" idea of Antichrist-- just what would it take to change your mind? In favor of the coming oriental/islamic antichrist I foresee? Just what events would make you reconsider?

In the immortal words of Nostradamus in re his 3d antichrist, (the one we are talking about)..."So long awaited he will never reappear/in Europe; in Asia he will appear, one of the league issued from Hermes, and beyond all the kings of the Easts his power will ascend..."

[crystalk]

It is as likely that Paul visited Mecca, as it is that Frances Trollope visited Cleveland or Philadelphia. What city or center of interest existed in Arabia BUT Mecca?

The little PS about the white and black stones, I seriously considered omitting it for the very reason that someone like you would think it had something to do with my thesis or argument, rather than just a special commendation of Jesus to the Orthodox faithful, so badly needed at this hour...

[crystalk]

"sitteth in the PLACE of God, showing himself that he IS God." might be the better translation, which this version does have. The Dome of the Rock is sitting in God's temple today. That temple is not a building, but the holy place itself, and Jews would have no problem understanding this clearly in the way I do.

[crystalk]

Not really. Even in the 5% chance that Paul never visited Mecca, he certainly would have heard of it. He was a very educated and learned man, and it was THE pagan site in Arabia for worship, pilgrimage, cult prostitution and mystery cults of every sort. A virtual supermarket and permanent Worlds Fair of the demonic.

PS Isn't it still? If non-Muslims could go there, I probably would have gone to see the Haj myself!

In no sense would my argument be diminished if Paul had got no closer to Mecca than an armchair in (Damascus?) what other city in Arabia even EXISTED then? Where do YOU think he spent the 5 years?

[crystalk]

I have never studied that; I understand there was a Jewish tribal village somewhere in the Hejaz by that name in the early Christian centuries but I know nothing of it.

[crystalk]

This conventional boilerplate may have some merit to quote here to those not familiar with it, but Jesus was clearly referring to some dramatic future event (or events)--the Roman eagles were there in His own day--nothing remarkable about THAT!

As to the destruction of Jerusalem, remember that a careful reader can parse the Little Apocalypse as to which event (the A of D/eschatological event) or the 70 AD event, each clause refers to! This was done as an exercise in my own NT classes many years ago!

About the 70 AD event, Jesus can be somewhat lackadaisical...hope it isn't in the winter or on the Sabbath, implying that one might just wait for better weather or another day of the week...and then one is just told to leave the city, and let him that is not in the city not enter it...everything is cool, relaxed!

But the A of D is another thing. The believer is ORDERED to panic! He is told to flee for his life, not even come back to get his coat or credit cards, just run for his life to any place in the world he could get to! When I see the Dome of the Rock (the visible A of D) that is just what I want to do! Get out of there, and back to alabammy!

[AAABEST]

When Ishmael was cast out and God said that his decendants would forever be against the world and the world against them, like a wild donkey. The clans that eventually became what we know today as "Arabs" were called Ishmaelites at that time. This is not just religion, it's historical fact.

Nobody, not scientist, historian or scholar can deny the truth of this uncanny prophesy in genesis. I challenge you to find any prediction, from any text (religious or otherwise) that has held so true, for so long.

It kind of takes your breath away when you really think about it.

[dennisw]

All I know is that Muhamed was the first Jihadist. The first killer for the greater glory of Allah.