Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

TWA FLIGHT 800
3rd party | 11/27/01 | Fred Roberts

Posted on 11/27/2001 1:52:03 PM PST by sandydipper

Today I had conversation with a commercial pilot who said that in July of 1996 just after the SHOOT DOWN of TWA800 a co-worker also a commercial pilot told him that he was sent to Paris to pick up the TWA president and fly him back to DC. The second pilot was a military pilot at the time and said that as soon as they returned to DC the TWA guy was helicoptered to the White House.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: twa800list; twaflight800
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240 ... 481-495 next last
To: Rokke
True. I have to imagine that any real professionals with the NTSB are thoroughly pissed at the claim that the CWT caused the accident when their own data proves otherwise. How did Bernie Loeb keep a straight face when showing the cartoon as proof of the cause. Possibly it was because the ABC-TV network was operating in collusion. Our fourth estate is a joke when it comes to protecting the public from an abusive government.
201 posted on 12/10/2001 4:18:04 PM PST by barf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | View Replies]

To: barf
Ah Yes, The dialogs on all your postings on the TWA800 are an extremely GOOD read. I find I am more inclined to agree with 'grasping at straws' to find solutions and truths than to take any government's word as a final solution. Additionally, hunting through miles of data and plumbing to link all the intercepts is a gradual and evolutionary process, which does occasionally lead one, for short side-trips, down dark alleys. But with continuous resolve and persistence the core of reality will allow for correction of direction and eventually the truth will out. (The above noted as an apologist to all those that might closely orbit the truth until all the data is finally revealed and accepted.) Does this personal belief system characterize me as a tin-foiler? I don't think so. I would prefer a characterization more descriptive as simply cautious and cynical.

I come to be cynical through second-hand experience. In brief; many years ago my father, Col. ----- -----(deceased), was one of 12 communications officers assigned as the 'wide receiver' to the president's football. Each shift consisted of one week on (7/12s), two off. Two officers (red and blue) were assigned to the communication booth simultaneously on each watch. Timeframe: three years contiguous during the last part of the Kennedy and the early part of the Johnson administration. Responsibilities included distributing information from all the armed forces to the president and visa-versa. A direct line the W/H was on their desk. When on duty these communications officers were 'The Button' should a war or outbreak occur, which means it was their responsibility to distribute launch codes, etc. with IBM cards which were stored in a double-locked (red and blue locks) plywood box at their feet. The president's physician was the only one authorized to tend to any medical needs of these communications officers. Imagine the security clearance that implies!! OK...enuf preface.

Several years ago, upon the approach of my father's passing, he shared with me a few tidbits of information which he was privy to during that auspicious assignment. The few items he did pass along were literally part of a deathbed confession, most of that conversation was more personal in nature. Knowing that he was not long to live he shared with me that one of his greatest regrets was his curiosity about the Kennedy assassination. He happened to be on duty when all that transpired and he cited several anomalies that he witnessed, there in the catbird seat, which have never been addressed publicly and probably never will be. His question still lay like lead at my feet..."I'd like to know who killed Kennedy." I will not belabor that particular issue but mention this only to carry forward the understanding that my father knew of conspiracies, was passively involved in conspiracies, understood the viability and success of military and government cover-ups and he knew that the public may never know or may not even care about what goes on below board.

A few other issues surfaced in our political conspiratorial conversations, some of which have finally been made public decades later. There is no need for me to bring those to light because there seems to be a resounding lack of interest in old news. However, I will bring one issue to light which proves, for me and my 'source', the concept that we are not necessarily being fed the truth in all thing military or political.

After my father retired from the service he befriended a fellow who was the top of the loop in a certain political/military arena under the watch of the Carter administration. I cannot reveal his name simply because he asked me not to in context with the following event.

The failed Eagle Claw Rescue Mission in Iran is publicly known to have failed due to several cascading events with the final Murphy being the described as one of the RH-53 helicopters hovering or flying into one of the refueling tankers at the Desert One refueling/rendezvous point. This so-called accident resulted in a fuel conflagration, which consumed the helicopter in question and the refueling tanker. Please review the photograph I will provide on request. (I don't yet know how to post a photo.) You will see that one of the main rotor blades of the errant RH-53, partially burned out, at the forefront of the photograph. Please notice that the tip of that rotor blade is intact with the body of the blade pointing roughly in the direction of the main rotor hub. Aerial photographs ( I no longer have the aerial photograph but would like to find another source, if anyone might assist) also reveal that the outer sections of all six of the RH-53 rotor blades are laying on the ground, symmetrically arrayed, around the burned-out hulk of the helicopter fuselage. All the tips of the main rotor blades are intact.

Any helicopter jock, as I once was, knows that when rotor blades, with enough velocity to taxi or hover, strike anything such as a refueling tanker, the blades will shatter at the tips and if the strikes are deep enough will shatter at the roots and stack into the offending, immovable object. There is not a chance in hell that the blades would remain intact at the tips or symmetrically arrayed.

I brought this anomaly to the attention of my 'unnamed source' at the request of my father. His reply was that I might also observe that the C130 tanker burned from the top down, not from the bottom up. A bottom up burn would usually indicate a major fuel spill from the EC-130's 18,000 gallon fuselage bladder, which is the story we are asked to believe. A top down burn indicates that the fuel cells in the wing were first to burn. My unnamed source also revealed to me that instead of the popular story which was publicly aired, the reason for the final failure was due to an aerial attack against our refueling/rendezvous station, Desert One. He followed up by saying that it was not Iran that attacked. He would not tell me who was responsible, saying that someday it might be revealed. At this point my unnamed source asked me not to use his name should I carry this information forward someday. I will respect his request.

Additional logic and research indicates that we lost too many patriots in this conflagration at Desert One for this to have been a simple hovering or low speed, low altitude collision and fuel cell rupture. I have personally witnessed and experienced how quickly other personnel and I can 'unass' a broken helicopter even or especially in the midst of fire. Eight fatalities, although possible, typically makes no sense under the circumstances described in the official report.

One more item which drew my attention upon reading the personal accounts of the surviving helicopter crew. Some indication seems to exist, based on their account, that there might have been at least one and possibly two explosive events as the helicopter was being abandoned.

The point of all the above is merely to exemplify that the military and the government can and will adjust, shade, or outright lie if deemed necessary. The Gulf of Tonkin Incident is another, now publicized example. It has taken over 30 years for the truth to come out on that issue. How many others issues still lay twisted in our history books and on the pages of our 'news' sources?

One might surmise, upon reading the above accounts, that I am anti-government. My politics is one of absolute loyalty to this United States of America and to our flag and all it stands for, even if that loyalty means that our information from our representatives and officials is not always truthful. I am willing to live with such imperfections as long as the United States Constitution remains intact and as long as We The People can question and debate and correct that information. I believe this is the best government and nation on earth and nothing will ever shake that personal resolve. I also believe that We The People, as the government, have the responsibility to oversee and continually correct errant behavior of our officials. That is the purpose of the United States Constitution and that is our most important responsibility. For us, as a people, to fail in 'grasping at straws' will eventually result in the failure of our cohesiveness as a nation and allow the power to shift from The People to a government that has no accountability. A government without accountability will always yield to control by despots and radicals.

I have little sympathy for the public of other countries that have been 'taken over' by despots such as we recently observed in the past years in Afghanistan and in other nations. It is said that no government can stand without the approval of the population. I believe that wholeheartedly. It is the populations that ultimately control the moral authority in any country. Should that population, regardless of the government status, yield control then it is my belief that they get what they deserve. There are no other excuses.

I can offer no further proof of what I have learned, personally experienced and what my motives might be. If one is doubtful of what I have put forth here then I guess that's OK. Indeed that is also 'grasping at straws'.

202 posted on 12/10/2001 4:20:29 PM PST by monsterbunny
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 199 | View Replies]

To: Asmodeus
Okay wiseguy. Tell your version to the Army helicopter pilots who were in the air that night. And pay attention closely, I'll only say this once. After that, you're ignorance is your oewn problem. One of four pilots stated on the news (they only showed him once, channel 4) that they saw a misiile streak from the surface upwards. A KKV or some other fantastically long range missile body wouldn't have come from the surface. All missile capable Navy boats were 300 miles away or outside missile range. He specifically stated it went upwards. If it had been from where you say it was (Or the official conspiracy theory states) it wouldn't have come from the surface. It would have appeared to be head on. He didn't say that. He stated he thought it was coming at him, so he did what his training said.

I'd trust the pilot for two reasons: 1) He knows what a missile launch looks like, night or day. He's supposed to. He's trained to know what it looks like. 2)He has no reason to lie.

Now, wiseguy, where's YOUR proof? Besides, a meter long missile launch tube would be impossible to find on the ocean floor. And the NTSB.. well, if they truly belived that.. all 747's world wide would be grounded until the supposed 'wiring fault' was fixed. There's other things, but space doesn't permit here yet. As for the proof that we gave Stingers to the Afghanis.. haven't you been paying attention the last few months? This has been known for months. CIA admitted it. It was reported in the press. They cannot account for them all. Gee.. think about that.

203 posted on 12/10/2001 4:21:36 PM PST by Darksheare
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies]

To: barf
Re-read post. Six pounds high explosive IS enough to tear the nose off a 747. Use the brain God gave you to look at the numbers and what Picatinny stuck in the puppy.
204 posted on 12/10/2001 4:24:16 PM PST by Darksheare
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: barf
The blast from a Stinger wouldn't necessarily be seen. You're looking for a fatal, small blast at two and a half miles.
205 posted on 12/10/2001 4:26:18 PM PST by Darksheare
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | View Replies]

To: Angus_Day
You're under the target. Firing straight up from a boat. The ejection rocket burns itself out before it even leaves the tube. The Stinger then coasts until a pre-set safe distance before lighting the main sustain/booster motor. It's going staright up under it's target.

And satellites going over head are moving either northward, or southward. Geo-stationarty sats are in the wrong area at the wrong angle to see such. And the Ikonos wouldn't have the resolution to see such a pathetic heat plume. Even if it could see IR.Aircraft based senosrs would have had the best chance of seeing such an event... And there weren't any of the right type in the area.

206 posted on 12/10/2001 4:32:12 PM PST by Darksheare
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 189 | View Replies]

To: Darksheare
Darksheare wrote: "All missile capable Navy boats were 300 miles away or outside missile range." Now that's funny! It appears Kallstrom invoked 'national security' on the 3 navy ships' names between only 3 and 6 miles away needlessly. :-) Even he was afraid to comment on the fourth - the closest one, the one fleeing at flank speed toward Norfolk from 3 only miles away - the one claimed to have done the dirty. A large number of navy ships were also eventually pinpointed by the navy at various distances well within the 300 mile limit. There's probably as many scattered about that area now, as would be expected. Those who claim 'the truth will out' are whistling Dixie, in my opinion. We may find out some day; we may not. Like JFK. There isn't even a vehicle for the truth to come out on TWA800.
207 posted on 12/10/2001 5:59:43 PM PST by thatstan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | View Replies]

To: monsterbunny
Great read on your part! I had the impression that a CH-53 has 7 blades. If so, six in a virgin state would not prove a lie. The story which I heard was that the dust being blown blinded those controlling the refueling and they did not notice that the refueling drogue was still attached to the helicopter probe when the helicopter lifted off. When there was a desire for another helicopter to move into position the one refueling was asked to move over. Your story was an acknowledgement that patriots are often those whom we never hear about. Abe Lincoln warned us of being defeated from within. Allowing the government to lie to us is a tragic harbinger of that.
208 posted on 12/10/2001 6:17:18 PM PST by barf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 202 | View Replies]

To: sandydipper
If it had been shot down, there would have been a clear IR picture seen by CLINTON-haters in C-Springs - no WAY kept secret.
209 posted on 12/10/2001 6:23:50 PM PST by BamaFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Darksheare
Disagree. The FDR told us that a violent yaw tore off the nose, empennage and outer wing panels. A Stinger doing that is a figment of your imagination. I have to believe that whatever hit the B747 did not explode in a conventional fuel/air explosion. Likely only an inert 2,900 lb. SM-2 supersonic Standard could do what occurred. No terrorist could even pretend to shoulder launch that mother.
210 posted on 12/10/2001 6:34:44 PM PST by barf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 204 | View Replies]

To: BamaFan
As I have noted, it would be very easy to keep secret. Having no visible explosion at the initiating event and a sub as the shooter would be no problem keeping it secret. All it would take is to lie about what happened. Who would have really had a good picture of the shootdown? The P3 had it to its back at the time of the intercept. The sub crew had no eyeballs on what happened. Those who did see an object strike the B747 likely could not identify what it was that did it. No one was expecting it to happen and only by chance would someone be looking directly at it when it did. The FDR and radar did see what happened and both tell us what happened. I reviewed the FDR and radar record and now know what happened. Isn't it strange that the NTSB did not review either the FDR or radar at the Bal'mer hearing? Without both of those, they could say anything which they wanted and no one could prove them wrong. They lied and the public bought it, excluding two-thirds of the aviation professionals who didn't.
211 posted on 12/10/2001 6:49:30 PM PST by barf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 209 | View Replies]

To: Rokke
Rokke wrote:
To: acehai
The IR guidance in the Standard Block IIIB is for the endgame and was developed to counter new ECM techniques in expected targets. The Block IIIB still uses semi-active guidance requiring the appropriate radars (none of which are sub mounted) to get its initial guidance. I don't believe the Block IIIB entered the fleet operationally until 1997, and most of its testing would have taken place on the West Coast.

Rokke, this is inconsistent with the sailors story. The purpose of the IR head is to give lowly 'forward-shooters who can't illuminate, like destroyers and frigates, the capability to use Standards. The story goes something like this:

"Only some genius at NSWC pointed out that the limiting factor now was still illuminators, so if we had a seaskimmer and the AEGIS is too far away or off-axis it's down in the multipath and the AEGIS can't designate the target. Since the Really Big Threat these days is high-speed seaskimming missiles lobbed off mobile launchers or from FACs, that sucks.

"So, they figured, why not give the weapon autonomous terminal homing? Gee, we've got this really nice Hughes I2R module that's getting stuffed into missiles all over the place (it's going in AIM-9X, the Brits use it in ASRAAM, think the Krauts put it in IRIS-T) and is a non-development item and just needs a new nose section, and hey presto you've got the biggest heatseeker in the world. Multipath? Stealth? Radar jamming? Who cares? It's hot, go kill it. Sic'em, boy!

"Now _everyone's_ happy because this expands everyone's options. Isn't just us Sprucans who can use it, of course, this is getting bandied about as a Stealth-killer for anyone with a Mark 41 (Stealth planes might be hard to track on radar, but they're hot compared to the sky, the Brits keep bragging how they 'killed' a B-2 with the IR tracker on a Rapier 2000 at Farnborough '94). But the big deal is, it offloads the AEGIS illuminators, shortens engagement times, and ups the Pk against puckermakers like Sunburn to something acceptable."

I might add the CEC testing was moved to the east coast from remote Hawaii in the winter of '95-'96. Where it stayed. Don't blame this one on the west coast. :-) They said it wasn't ready for the move, BTW. Like political/management types give a sh.. what engineers say. For some reason I suspect Standards are now on lowly forward-shooter destroyers and frigates - which still can't illuminate. Commander Acehai? Figures. :-)
212 posted on 12/10/2001 6:51:52 PM PST by thatstan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: barf
I was thinking more along the lines of SBIRS or something else. I'm not real familiar w/ IR from space, but based on the ease w/ which the space guys id'd the source of the shot taking out that flight over Ukraine recently, I believe we (US) has pretty continuous IR pics from space over most important flight paths.
213 posted on 12/10/2001 7:00:35 PM PST by BamaFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 211 | View Replies]

To: Darksheare
The "Missile Witnesses" Myth

214 posted on 12/10/2001 7:06:40 PM PST by Asmodeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | View Replies]

To: thatstan
For what it's worth. . . .

"And guess what, there's a nice hot 747 right in front of it, four miles or so away, with a cold evening sky for backdrop."

This still makes shivers go up and down my spine! Fedbuttkissers don't have this problem. No spines! :-)
215 posted on 12/10/2001 7:08:20 PM PST by thatstan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 212 | View Replies]

To: BamaFan
To repeat. Our government or one of its contractors did the shooting and our same government has the means to detect a launch. Our government has reason to lie about their own mistakes and this explains why we haven't received any space based detection information. Those sitting under a mountain in CO Springs work for the same government. We are only lowly peons who don't deserve the truth.
216 posted on 12/10/2001 7:21:38 PM PST by barf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 213 | View Replies]

To: thatstan
"Rokke, this is inconsistent with the sailors story. The purpose of the IR head is to give lowly 'forward-shooters who can't illuminate, like destroyers and frigates, the capability to use Standards."

Interesting post, but the Standard is already used on lowly frigates, and can't be used on the only destroyers that don't already carry it, because they don't have the appropriate launchers. In addition, the key to your story is this phrase: "autonomous terminal homing". To be effective against the weapons described in your story (high-speed seaskimming missiles, stealth bombers etc.) you have to be able to engage them at distances greater than those possible with only an IR seeker. Otherwise, you end up with an expensive, and very slow rate of fire CWDS. The IR missiles listed in your story all have relatively short acquistion ranges, and (with the exception of ASRAAM)use vectored thrust to compensate for their small window of opportunity to engage and intercept their targets. By comparison, the Standard is large and clunky. It was designed to hit relatively large contacts at long range. The IR seeker in the Block IIIB Standard was put there to increase its endgame lethality against small targets at long range. Not to provide initial autonomous guidance.

217 posted on 12/10/2001 8:04:37 PM PST by Rokke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 212 | View Replies]

To: barf
"Our fourth estate is a joke when it comes to protecting the public from an abusive government"

Yes, and our fourth estate has an equally fine record of covering up military mistakes and accidents (sarcasm intended). There certainly wasn't much of an uproar when the Greenville sunk the Japanese trawler. And that bombing accident in Kuwait several months ago didn't generate much press speculation. Not to mention Tailhook, the Jenny Flynn sex debacle etc etc. Yep, if there is one thing that is certain, it is that the media falls all over itself to cover up military controversy. I'm sure they'd do whatever it took to cover up a little shootdown of a U.S. flag carrier jumbo jet.

218 posted on 12/10/2001 8:42:37 PM PST by Rokke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 201 | View Replies]

To: Rokke
Our new destroyers are a wonder to behold with VLS on both the bow and between the helicopter hangers on the stern. It would be a lucky officer to command one of these. They have your clunky SM-2's for some odd reason. The Gatling guns, torpedoes and 5 inch cannon make it a floating fortress.
219 posted on 12/10/2001 9:18:49 PM PST by barf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 217 | View Replies]

To: barf
Do you know what the "official" explanation of the decapitations is? How many of the passengers were decapitated and do you know the seating?
220 posted on 12/11/2001 6:46:07 AM PST by sandydipper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 216 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240 ... 481-495 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson