Can we distinguish between Islam and Christianity

Miscellaneous | November 23, 2001 | John J. Abele

[a_Turk]

It is his divinity that gives meaning to them.

I see your point, and that is exactly where we differ. It's his sacrifice that gives meaning to them from where I am standing. The divinity bit is there to impress the children.

Suddenly His divinity is more important than anything else, and the message gets lost, and we'll be alright even if we don't follow his word, but believe in his Divinity. That's the kind of thing that laid the groundwork for the moral bankruptcy that's prevelant in an unminimizable segment of western society (and yes, let me save you the trouble of asserting this: Muslims have not the same but similar problems).

[CyberCowboy777]

Didn't you say you were a Christian? Also, what's dominating here on this thread except the idea that Christians shouldn't be "mismatched with unbelievers"? Again, in another example of intellectual dishonesty, the pot calls the kettle black.

You are right; we are not to be un-equally yoked. You and others are spreading the idea that Muslims and Christians are of the same basic religion and believe much the same. If that were so, there would be no problem with yoking. The Koran clearly makes a distinction as does the Bible. We do not believe the same things and are at odds on many subjects.

Btw...Saddam's right hand man, Tariq Aziz, is a Christian

Iraq is a secular nation, even still the Muslims ARE aggressive towards Christians in that country. In Muslim countries that function as a secular government there are more freedoms (2 or 3 out of the 20 + Muslim nations?). Most Muslim nations at a minimum treat Christians as a second class people and at worst kill and torture. Even Muslims in Secular countries target Christians and Jews i.e. the Philippians.

[a_Turk]

The central message of Christianity is salvation from Hell through belief in Jesus Christ.

"No one comes to the Father except through me."

I can say Yes, I agree. But as soon as we start digging into details, we're going to disagree.

"Except through me" to me means "except by following my example (give yourself) and following my teachings (love your neighbor)."

"Except through me" to you means "except by believing that I am God, the son of God."

[clamper1797]

Bull$hit

[KanghaRue]

Cyber:
You and others are spreading the idea that Muslims and Christians are of the same basic religion and believe much the same.

kangharue:
Where have I said that? I don't even believe that.

Cyber:
Even Muslims in Secular countries target Christians and Jews i.e. the Philippians

kangharue:
Yes, and this is really no different than the way non-Christians were treated in Europe for centuries. Unfortunately, religious bigotry will probably always be with us.

[KanghaRue]

clamper:
Bull$hit

kangharue:
I see another intellectual giant has joined the discussion.

[freebilly]

Yes, and this is really no different than the way non-Christians were treated in Europe for centuries. Unfortunately, religious bigotry will probably always be with us.

Let's make a deal. You start protesting the on going persecution of Christians and Jews in many Islamic nations, and I will start protesting the persecution of Muslims in Christian nations.

Sounds fair to me.

[RobbyS]

The divinity bit is there to impress the children. No, the divinity comes in response to certain events associated with Jesus: certain miracles that went beyond the usual kind associated with holy men; the tranfiguration that literally presented Him in a new light to the disciples; above all, the Resurrection, which totally confounded them. The phenomenal spread of the Christian movement was predicated on a widespread belief that something like the Exodus had happened again and that it was associated with Jesus. A similar"mass hysteria"--a word that rationalists resort to when they cannot explain something --occured in Arabia in the 7th Century. Those who believe that God does not intervene in history will dismiss all such things, because it goes against their own settled faith.

[clamper1797]

Don't flatter yourself ... I don't enter into intellectual conversations with those who are so full of BS it comes out his ears. I was indicating to you that I consider you to be one of those.

[clamper1797]

After reading your profile his = hers. I guess you just have'nt had the time to put much in it. Nov 21

[KanghaRue]

clamper:
Don't flatter yourself ... I don't enter into intellectual conversations with those who are so full of BS it comes out his ears. I was indicating to you that I consider you to be one of those.

kangharue:
Great, I can't stand the minimalist approach anyway.

[MissAmericanPie]

Fundamental as what?

[jesthar]

I saw someone mention miracles a way back, and it reminded me of an lengthy exchange I had in a chatroom several months ago with a muslim, a pleasant chap who displayed a comprehensive knowledge of Islam. He made a statement that any revelation of God's Word (i.e. Scripture) was always accompanied by miracles. As a Christian, I obviously knew of the miracles of the Old and New Testaments, and I was also aware of some of the claimed miracles of Mohammed (cutting the moon up with a sword, a palm tree crying because Mohammed wouldn't preach under it, making water flow from his fingernails) in the Hadith. However, I was unaware of any miracles recorded in the Quran itself, so I asked him what the miracles accompanying it's revelation were. He said that it was (this is slightly paraphrased 'cause I can't remember the exact words due to the time lapse...) "the way the Quran seems to come alive when you read it." I replied that the Bible did just that when I read it. He said no, he meant the way you could feel the power behind the words. I replied that that was exactly true of the Bible, which also recorded the miracles of Jesus, in many cases in two or more Gospels. The conversation moved on to a different topic not long after that, but it left me with some questions:

1. If (as I believe) miracles indeed accompany any revelation of Scripture, why are there no miracles of the myriad types recorded in the Jewish books and the Christian New Testament recorded in the Quran (healings etc.)?

2. If the Quran is a follow on from the Jewish Scriptures and the New Testament, why does it differ from them on many major historical points?

3. If one of the ongoing miracles claimed is the preservation of the Quran according to Allahs promise that he would preserve his word from corruption, how can the simultaneous claims that a) Allah preserves his word uncorrupted, and b) that the Jewish books and the Bible are corrupted, possibly be reconciled?

Just a few of the queries I have, and enough to be going on with, I think. Answers on a post-form please :)

[a_Turk]

Thanks for asking, but please - just because I am doing my best to help these folks to be better brothers than Kein and Abel, and even though the fruits of my labor could be considered a miracle if they were to develop, that does not mean that I believe at a "Santa Claus" level as most of them do. Miracles? yeah, sure. They don't impress me. I'll go on to try and answer your questions anyway:

1. If (as I believe) miracles indeed accompany any revelation of Scripture, why are there no miracles of the myriad types recorded in the Jewish books and the Christian New Testament recorded in the Quran (healings etc.)?

I don't know. Many nights of prayer may yield some answer. Maybe 'coz they were not thought to be needed to entice with.

2. If the Quran is a follow on from the Jewish Scriptures and the New Testament, why does it differ from them on many major historical points?

Lots of possibilities. Any specifics?

3. If one of the ongoing miracles claimed is the preservation of the Quran according to Allahs promise that he would preserve his word from corruption, how can the simultaneous claims that a) Allah preserves his word uncorrupted, and b) that the Jewish books and the Bible are corrupted, possibly be reconciled?

Where in the Koran does it state that the Holy Books are corrupted? It's the people who are corrupted, as they foolishly find "loopholes" and succumb to their irresistable urges to sin. That's evident from the state of our Muslims, Christians, and Jews (spoken as a human) today..

[Florida native]

Better yet freebilly, the first time you will see a mention of the Trinity is in Genesis.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

You see it again when Adam and Eve first sinned.

Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- Genesis 3:22

As well, it is believed that Christ, and not an angel, was seen walking in the midst of the fire with Shadrach(Hannaniah), Meshach(Mishael), and Abed-nego(Azariah). Nebuchandnezzar asked his high officials were not only three cast bound in the midst of the fire?

He answered and said, "Look! I see four men loosed in the fire without harm, and the appearance is like a son of the gods!" Daniel 3:25

[freebilly]

Thanks for your post.

[lasereye]

I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one.
John 10:25-30

What do you think that means? Does "I give them eternal life" mean "by following my teachings God, not me, will give you eternal life? What does "I and My Father are one mean"? That "My teachings and the Father are one"? How far are you willing to take this kind of absurdity?

As I quoted in post #364:

All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Matthew 12:27

What does this mean? I'm anxious to receive the benefit of your learned opinions. I'm obviously much less knowledgable about what the intended meaning of the Bible is than you, along with hundreds of theologians throughout the centuries. Does it mean that "My teachings will reveal you to the Father?", and "No one knows the Father except My teachings"? I guess you reach your conclusions by the clever device of simply replacing all references to Jesus, including self references, with "my teachings" or "my example" or something. I guess he just constantly referred to himself to confuse us.

Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables; without a parable he told them nothing.
This was to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet:
”I will open my mouth to speak in parables; I will proclaim what has been hidden from the foundation of the world.•
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples approached him, saying, ”Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field. •
He answered, ”The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!
Matthew 13

I could go on and give you more passages, but I guess me and millions of other Christians are just misunderstanding them too. It's so embarrassing being ignorant of what the Bible really means. You're right, 99.99% of Islam and Christianity are the same.

[slhill]

I agree that many Jews, me included, intensely dislike the attitudes, behaviours and theology of "Jews for Jesus". We're none too keen on missionaries either, what with lots of our ancestors have been burned, raped, beaten and otherwise persecuted because they wouldn't accept Jesus as Messiah. The point I was trying to make however, was different. It was that Kevin Curry was trying to make some sort of example of how dreadful Islam was for being "anti-Christ", while not mentioning that Judaism was also "anti-Christ" in exactly the same way. Judaism is in fact even more "anti-Christ" than Islam as it does not think Jesus has any religious status for Jews, while Islam treats Jesus as a prophet.

[KanghaRue]

This is what's sometimes referred to as a royal plural. Many languages use this to be extra polite, or majestic. Even the Quran shows God saying "we"....because I believe that Arabic has this royal plural. It's a HUGE strech to say that this is talking about a Trinitarian God.