Posted on 11/23/2001 4:03:53 AM PST by Ada Coddington
That is true. However, the question is directed only to Christians who, presumably, place God before nation.
Methinks Jesus might have a beef with us if we let the Taliban keep oppressing, raping, and murdering its people, including its women.
Which government is without sin in oppressing its people? Jesus followed the law as written and the Hebrews generally had no problem in obeying the laws of other countries when they were guests there.
Second, although I don't pretend to hear from God on this issue, one CANNOT dismiss the fact that Christian leaders (including the Pope) can receive instructions similar to those given the Children of Israel. I don't think Pope Urban DID, but prophecy and Word of Knowledge/Wisdom are ongoing, and cannot be either dismissed or discounted as a possibility.
Third, the author uses Romans correctly, then INCORRECTLY strips it of its meaning with Old Testament references. The fact is that the "state does not bear the sword for naught," and part of bearing that sword may INDEED be foreign intervention that secures one's borders. Jesus did NOT chastize Peter for slicing off the attacker's ear as a "pre-emptive strike." He corrected him for the TIMING.
Fourth, if protecting the unborn, because they are "innocent" is a commandment, it is just as necessary to protect the adult innocent from foreign attacks. Therefore, if you know through INTEL an enemy is going to strike, you are perfectly justified in striking first to prevent deaths.
Fifth, the Old Testament principles the author DOES cite justify killing ALL of one's enemies in order to prevent revenge attacks. Do you, Ada, support this?
This is just another attempt by the communist left, masquerading as "Libertarians," to hate America. And, as usual, it fails.
Oh come on. Of course all governments have their problems. But there comes a point when you have to draw the line.I don't think it would be Christian-like to tell the women of Afghanistan to 'be good guests'.
I apologize for the lengthly post, it was an e-mail I received yesterday, and I did not feel there was any justice done by editing it.
My point of my post above is this: It is DANGEROUS to apply specific commands given to the NATION of Israel to OUR nation. WE have NO such promise; Israel STILL DOES.
Revelation 19:11: And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He [Christ] who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war."
Romans 13:1-7: (1) "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. (2) Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. . . . (4) . . . But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. . . ."
Psalm 89:14: "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Thy throne."
Proverbs 28:5: "Evil men do not understand justice."
Micah 6:8: "He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"
Decuteronomy 17:2-13: "If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the Lord your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the lord your God . . .(7) you shall purge the evil from your midst. . . . (11) According to the terms of the law which they teach you, and according to the verdict which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the word which they delcare to you, to the right or the left. . . . (12) . . . you shall purge the evil. . . ."
The God of the Jews and Christians is a just God, not a pacifist. He requires justice be done, brought by Himself or through humans. We are engaged in a "just-war" against the terrorists. Not only does God expect those who have done wrong be brought to justice, but those who harbor the wrongdoers share in the terrorists' guilt. The Taliban, in Afghan, have not purged the evil from their midst. Rather, they have given aid, shelter, protection. Therefore, they have condemned themselves. They are just as guilty as having committed the evil acts. God says we cannot serve two masters. Either we are followers of God or we are not. If we follow Him, we obey him. If we obey him, then we, within our bodies and minds, are to purge evil from within our own selves. Carrying this over from self to country, in God's eyes, if a country harbors evil, it is to purge that evil from its midst or it shares in the guilt, and the just punishment, of the evil doers it protects.
Afghanistan has been ruled by the Taliban which has given aid and protection to evil, rather than purging the evil. It now suffers the consequences of comforting evil doers.
The Taliban didn't change much re the status of women in Afghanistan. I was there in 1973 and respectable women were never seen on the streets. (However, we did see nomadic women outside the cities who, incidentally, did not wear veils although the men did.) In any event the author claims that war should be absolutely the last thing to be used, perhaps because the war killed more women than the Taliban ever did.
If a Christian government has no hope of defending against attack, it should surrender, knowing that Christianity will survive. 11.Deut 20:1-5 declares that a small army with God on its side can beat a large well-armed one.
Am I the only one that sees a contradiction here?
The Taliban gained power through victory in a civil war. This is the same way that the current federal system in the United States was established.
God determines the appointed times of the nations and the timing of their rule.
Does this mean the Taliibabies had the same backing from God as the USA?
Okay, Atheist appeaser, justify these inconsistencies. And also stop beating around the bush, and state uncategorically that we should do absolutely nothing to retaliate for the attacks perpetrated against us, and simply hope the terrorists will stop trying to kill as many Christians and Jews as they possibly can.
The author is a Presbyterian minister who presumably believes that the nation of Israel is now the spiritual decendants of Abraham.
The Roman Catholics have thought long and hard over what constitutes a "just war". Their conclusions aren't much different from the Presbyterian minister's.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
"If a Christian government has no hope of defending against attack, it should surrender, knowing that Christianity will survive. 11.Deut 20:1-5 declares that a small army with God on its side can beat a large well-armed one.
Am I the only one that sees a contradiction here?
We'll see if others see a contradiction. I do not. The first verse refers is about declaring war and the second about defensive war. You should not do either lightly. The last verse is a caution against pessimism. For instance, quite often a defensive war is winnable even though the defender has less resources.
The Taliban gained power through victory in a civil war. This is the same way that the current federal system in the United States was established.
Civil wars rarely are successful without the help of outside foreign powers. We had the French and the Taliban had us.
God determines the appointed times of the nations and the timing of their rule. Does this mean the Taliibabies had the same backing from God as the USA?
I am not that much of a fatalist to believe that length of rule is predetermined.
Okay, Atheist appeaser, justify these inconsistencies. And also stop beating around the bush, and state uncategorically that we should do absolutely nothing to retaliate for the attacks perpetrated against us, and simply hope the terrorists will stop trying to kill as many Christians and Jews as they possibly can.
Its the state's job to punish criminal acts. That is not license to kill the innocent. The events of 911 should be considered criminal acts and, if there are others involved in the attacks that were not killed, the state should prosecute them. If these people are not residing in the United States, then we should issue letters of marque and reprisal against them.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
You might wish to read further in Romans 9. Starting in verse 24, Paul notes:
"Even us, whom he hath call, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
The U.S. War In Afghanistan and Just War Theory
The article isn't terribly long and may be worth a read. From this and another article I read there, I sensed that they reluctantly came to the conclusion that this is not a just war, but would prefer to have reached a different conclusion, but I may be reading too much into what they say.
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