[Hajman]

You can try to subvert what I believe. It will have not effct upon me. Some others will probably enjoy your analysis and mind twisting of my beliefs so have it. Just know that you are really talking to them and not me.

Sorry sir, but all I gave was a synopsis of reality (as biologists know it) pertaining to the subject at hand. Whether you want to believe in reality or not is up to you. But if you want to call my statements incorrect, you're going to have to refute them with logic and facts. Here's my fact number one: The fetus respirates via the umbilical cord from the time it attaches to it's mother. Now, let's here your counter statements, if it's really the truth your interested in. If all you're interested in is pushing your own ideas (that appear to have no basis in fact or logic, by your lack of applying them to your arguments), then I hope you see the truth sometime. As for now, I'll be glad to continue debating with fact and logic. If you think I'm wrong, point out specifically where you think I'm wrong, and use facts and logic to show why I'm wrong (your opinions don't count. Neither do mine. That's why I try to keep my opinions out of these debates; at least as far as the actual debate goes. I occassionally give opinions about people, but those are irrevelent to the validaty of the debate).

-The Hajman-

[pcl]

I am talking about breathing air into the lungs. That point where the fetus become autonomus from the mother.

I do not believe the bible is word of god like some people, but I do believe it has some value in investigating moral issues. Having made that equivocation I will now present some biblical foundation.

(Gen 2:7)And the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" Man becomes a living soul when he breathes the breath of life. Simple, is it not?

The Hebrews showed a strong proclivity towards this idea also. The Hebrew word for human being or living person is nephesh, which is also the word for "breathing." Nephesh occurs hundreds of times in the Bible as the identifying factor in human life. Life is breathing. Simple is it not?

How about science? Well, a group of 167 scientists and physicians told the Supreme Court in 1989 that "the most important determinant of viability is lung development," and that viability is not achieved significantly earlier than at twenty-four weeks of gestation because critical organs, "particularly the lungs and kidneys, do not mature before that time." While this does not directly address the issue of the breath of life, it does tell us that a fetus of less than 24 weeks will not be able to breath. If it can not breath then if can not obtain a soul and partake in human life.

Now, let's look at the law. Neither Anglo-Saxon law nor the U.S. Constitution has ever given a fetus the same legal status as a woman. Until a baby is born there is only a potential person. When abortion was illegal, it was reviewed as a felony rather than a homicide.New York in its homicide statute defines a "person when referring to the victim of a homicide (as) a human being who has been born and is alive." (N.Y. Rev. Penal Law 125.05] The U.S. Constitution in the 14th Amendment makes birth a prerequisite to citizenship.

So, there are some of the elements that have established my belief that life begins and ends with breathing air into the lungs. None of this stuff will have any effect upon anyone but me. The material given is not part of my belief system, it is just some stuff that got me to this point. It is sort of like a ladder. Once you have climbed the ladder, you do not need again if you never intend to come down. To put it in plain English, invalidating one or all of these idea will not change what is now my belief.

(Do I sound pedantic?)