Posted on 11/16/2001 1:16:15 PM PST by ExiledInTaiwan
Click here for the book: Origin of Conflict
Try this:
1. Jews were already living there in 1880.
2. They started buying more land (from those who were glad to sell it.)
3. Most of the land was uninhabitable and was owned by the Ottoman Empire, who lost it to the Brits.
4. More Jews and more Arabs started immigrating to the area as Jewish funds developed it. Both sides wanted it.
5. So the UN split it into two pieces.
6. The Arabs attacked the Jews and got their butts kicked again and again.
7. They say they want statehood but everytime it's offered, they attack again.
"But all these [different peoples who had come to Canaan] were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree...And that parent tree was Canaanite...[The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried with them, with the result that all are now so completely Arabized that we cannot tell where the Canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
FALSE. Canaanites disappear from history completely in the last millenium B.C. period. Their culture, social structures, genealogical continuity is lost. Therefore, it is wholly gratuitous and simplistic to assert a tie between the Canaanites, the Israelites, Arabs, Greek and Latin Christians (non Arab) who came with the Roman and Byzantine conquests, etc. Moroever it is false to say Canaanite was the "parent tree". Indeed from the "Table of Nations" the Canaanites come from HAM and not SHEM which is the origin of the Arabs and Jews (Gen. 10:6). This sort of sloppy inference is a small indication of what this group engages in.
"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance
I'm amazed. Here "Jews for Justice" presumes to speak about Justice but instead they completely gloss over the utter devastation of the Arab Islamic Jihad over indigenous Christian (non-Arab) and Jewish communities. Only a bunch like this could turn the Jihad into a virtue. Here is how the Jihad started:
The greatest lie of the 20th and 21st century is the myth of the indigenous "Palestinians" (Arabs). The Arab Islamics began the
rape, pillaging, massacres, forced conversions, head taxes, etc. with the prophet Mohammed, in the Arabian peninsula, as he
massacred 600-900 Jewish men in cold-blood and his men raping and enslaving the women and children (Banu Qurayza,
627). This Jihad would extend throughout the Arabian peninsula (where under the second caliph in 640 the Jews and Christians were expelled from the peninsula), North Africa, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Persia, Syria, Palestine, South Spain before finally being stopped at Narbonne (720) and Poitiers (732). In the space of 100 years the Arab Islamics had massacred, conquered, dhimmiized, pillaged, whole INDIGENOUS Christian (non Arab) and Jewish communities. Most of the time this would consist of massacring, enslaving, and ethnically cleansing whole Christian and Jewish populations. Bat Ye'or in, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam (1996), at pp. 44ff. describes this blight on long-standing Christian and Jewish communities:
After the death of the Prophet, the caliph Abu Bakr organized the invasion of Syria which Mohammed had
already envisaged. He gathered tribes from the Hijaz, Najd, and Yemen and advised Abu Ubayda, in charge of
operations in the Golan (Palestine), to plunder the countryside but, due to a lack of adequate weaponry, to refrain
from attacking towns.2 Consequently, the whole Gaza region up to Cesarea was sacked and devastated in the
campaign of 634. Four thousand Jewish, Christian, and Samaritan peasants who defended their land were
massacred. The villages of the Negev were pillaged by Amr b. al-As, while the Arabs overran the countryside,
cut communications, and made roads perilous. Towns such as Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Cesarea, Nablus, and Beth
Shean were isolated and closed their gates (note: these towns had a majority Jewish/Christian (non Arab)
populations). In his sermon on Christmas Day 634, the patriarch of Jerusalem, Sophronius, lamented over the
impossibility of going on pilgrimage to Bethlehem as was the custom, because the Christians were forcibly kept in
Jerusalem:"not detained by tangible bonds, but chained and nailed by fear of the Saracens [Arab Islamics],"
whose "savage, barbarous and bloody sword" kept them locked up in the town.3
In Syria...Sophronius, in his sermon on the Day of Epiphany 636, bewailed the destruction of churches and
monasteries, the sacked towns, the fields laid waste, the villages burned down by the nomads who were
overrunning the country. In a letter the same year to Sergius, patriarch of Constantinople, he mentions the ravages
wrought by the Arabs.4 Thousands of people perished in 639, victims of the famine and plague that resulted from
these destructions.....
Country areas, particularly the plains and valleys populated with hamlets and villages, were ravaged by Bedouins
who set fire to crops, massacred and carried off the peasantry and their cattle, and left nothing but ruins.
Townspeople were in a different position. Protected by their walls, they could defend themselves or negotiate the
conditions of their surrender on payment of tribute to the Bedouin chiefs....
In fact, the record of the precise progress of the Arab conquests constituted a basic principle in the earliest
stages of Muslim law, since it fixed not only the nature and taxation of the land, but also the legislation applicable
to its indigenous inhabitants. Although some disparities appeared in respect of the towns, the majority of the
villages fell into the category of conquest without a treaty. According to the strategy of jihad, the absence of a
treaty allowed the massacre or enslavement of the conquered population and the division of their property....
Helped by local Arab support---particularly active in the central region and the lower Euphrates---and by troop
reinforcements sent from Arabia, Muslims extended their raids on the countryside and villages to the south and
center of Iraq around Mada'in (Ctesiphon).......they invaded the Sawad (Babylonia), the villages near the Tigris
and Euphrates....These raids were supported by Umar who sent reinforcements from Medina. The monasteries
were pillaged, the monks killed, and Monophysite [Christian] Arabs massacred, enslaved, or Islamicized by
force; in Elam the population was also decimated, and in Susa their notables were put to the sword....
Palestine was laid waste and plundered.13 The Arabs moved into Cilicia, taking inhabitants with them into
captivity. Mu'awiya sent Habib b. Maslama to Armenia....On his orders, the population of Euchaita [Jews and
non-Arab, i.e., Armenian Christians] (on the river Halys) was put to the sword; those who escaped were all taken
into slavery.14 According to the Armenian chroniclers, the Arabs, after they decimated the populations in Assyria
and forced large numbers of people to embrace Islam, "entered the district of Daron [south-west of lake Van]
which they sacked, shedding rivers of blood. They exacted tribute and forced the women and children to be
handed over to them."15 In 642 they took the town of Dvin and annihilated the population [mainly Assyrian
Christians] by the sword. Then "the Ishmaelites returned by the route whence they had come, carrying off in their
wake a multitude of captives to the number of thirty-five thousand."16
The following year, according to the same chronicler, the Arabs again invaded Armenia, "wreaking havoc, ruin,
and slavery."17 ....
In North Africa, the Arabs took thousands of captives and accumulated a large stock of booty...."the Muslims
set to work overrunning and laying waste the open country."19 Tripoli was ransacked in 643; Carthage was
entirely razed to the ground and most of its inhabitants were killed [majority Christian]. The Arabs put the
Maghreb to fire and sword, and it took them more than a century to restore peace there by crushing the Berber
resistance....
The wars continued on land and sea with Mu'awiya's successors. Arab troops wrought havoc in Anatolia by
numerous incursions; churches were desecrated and burned down; all the inhabitants of Pergamum, Sardes, and
other towns were led into captivity. The Greek towns of Gangres and Nicae were destroyed. Contemporary
Christian chronicles mention entire regions ravaged, villages razed to the ground, towns burned, pillaged and
destroyed, while entire populations were enslaved.
As has been mentioned, town populations were not always spared. They often suffered massacre or slavery,
always accompanied by deportations. This was the fate of the Christians and Jews of Aleppo, Antioch,
Ctesiphon, Euchaita, Constantia, Pathos (Cyprus), Pergamum, Sardes, Germanicea (Marash), and
Samosata---to cite but a few examples. In the course of the Umayyads' last attempt to take Constantinople
(717), the Arab army commanded by Maslama carried out a pincer movement by land and sea and laid waste the
whole region around the capital.
During the course of Islamic hegemony Bedouins and other Arabs would immigrate to these ethnically cleansed and pillaged, non Arab areas and the remaining indigenous populations would be put in a dhimmi state with periodic sacking, persecution and massacring of the remaining Christian and Jewish populations or these peoples would flee to other areas.
=====================================================
Come on puppy we're waiting for your response. That above response was just a snippet of the lies which "Jews for Justice" engages in.
Yes. I understand that there are genuine issues with the water supply, it's limited and both sides need it. This needs to be hashed out in an equible manner. I'm also not entirely comfortable with the Golon Heights and would understand anyone making a case for Israel withdrawing from it, if only as a good will gesture. But those who want to blame Israel for everything, those who want it destroyed, those who want us to abandon it, are either mislead, IMO, or have a larger agenda which is anti-Semitic because it's anti-capitalist, therefore anti-USA and pro- collectivist, fascist, etc. And when you get to collective mindsets, Islam is a finger on the same hand as socialism, communism, and the like.
TRANSLATION:
Israel is under seige and always will be. Even if a Pallie state is created.
That's not true at all. We have brought up several points that you folks simply fall silent on.
1. How can you say Jews stole the land when in fact they bought it? They paid money for it, and paid that money to the rightful owners.
2. Most of the land was never owned by private citizens. It was owned by the Ottoman Empire, who lost it to the Brits, who turned it over to the UN, who partitioned it into two states.
3. The Arabs rejected the offer of an Arab state and attacked Israel.
4. Even now, as plans for a Palestinian state limp forward, Muslims assassinate Israelis in an admitted attempt to derail this process.
5. Why do the Palestinian refugees prefer to be refugees in Israel instead of citizens in Jordan? Why did Jordan kick out the PLO? Because even Jordan disagreed with what they were doing.
These points and many others have not yet been addressed by you, equus, Patria One, John_11_25 (or whatever) etc. Why?
Personally I wish the Jews had made their homeland in New York. I'd rather have them here than Muslims: Judaism is inherently friendly to capitalism. Islam is not.
Most of them didn't have far to go. LOL!
1) If the land belongs to those who were there "first" then it undeniably belongs to the Jews.
I too am an atheist and I don't accept any 3000 year old claims of any kind by either side. While I have a sentimental attachment to my native Scotland, I have no claim to the place, even though my ancestors were expelled from there a mere 200 years ago. I would have no idea where to find my ancestral home and against who to claim a claim. As for Jews in Palestine, it is not even clear if these white Europeans have an ancestral home there. If they do, it is obvious that they have no idea on what piece of ground it might be found.
The Arabs lived in Palestine/Israel for many generations. They built houses, orchards, villages. It was their land. Many of the people whose land was stolen are still alive.
2) The Jews didn't steal the land, they bought it rightfully.
This statement is simply false. Most of Israel is land which was stolen from the Arabs. Less than 10% was actually paid for. And even this was obtained through the process of feudal clearances - ethnic cleansing. Jewish agencies would buy feudal holdings from the landlord and run the peasants off the land. The tension between Arab and Jew before partition was directly attributable to this process.
3) The Arabs were offered statehood in 1948. They rejected it.
The Arabs were told that their homeland would be partitioned. Jews represented one third of the population and owned about 7% of the land. Despite this, the Arabs were offered a state consisting of 43% of the area of Mandate Palestine. Wouldn't you reject this "offer"?
Then they attacked Israel.
In the months leading up to partition, Jewish terrorists cleared Arabs out of much of Palestine in a systematic attempt to obtain more of the land. When the British finally left, surrounding Arab states attacked. When the smoke finally cleared Israel consisted of 78% of the land and 700,000 Arabs were refugees. While there is fault on both sides, the facts are that the Arabs were offered a bad deal in the beginning and became refugees when they attempted to object.
Over the next 50 years, Israel has repeatedly ignored Arab attempts to reclaim the land stolen in 1948 or even to offer compensation. Unsurprisingly, this has caused some tension between Israelis and Arabs. In 1967, Israel used this tension as a pretext to invade and conquer the rest of Mandate Palestine. Since then, it has pursued a policy of state-supported colonization.
4) Not all Palestinians are refugees, about 1,000,000 have Israeli citizenship.
Who cares? Israeli treatment of those Arabs who have citizenship is decent (although not perfect). But the question is about the 4,000,000 who are refugees or who live under military rule.
5) Those who are refugees have as much claim to Jordanian citizenship (more really) than to Israeli. But they don't want it and Jordan doesn't want them. Why? Why would they rather be refugees in Israel than citizens in Jordan?
Wrong. The land they were expelled from was Isreal, not Jordan. The state which stole their land was Israel, not Jordan.
When anamensis made an intelligent response in 516, I treated it with respect.
Stop repeating this lie. Vast bulk of the land that Israel was made from was owned by the Ottomans then kept by the British under the Palestinian Mandate. Was not owned by landlords.
This is before the Arabs even attacked them in 1948 and there was the first Arab war on Israel.
If you can't live in the 21st century, try living in the 20th at least. OK? I have no idea whether your rant is true or not. I do know that it is totally irrelevant (and so consequently I didn't read it). Anyone who dredges up stuff from 1500 years ago has a serious problem getting his priorities straight.
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