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Pray for America
1 posted on 11/12/2001 9:06:00 AM PST by t-shirt
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To: OKCSubmariner; xp38; lavrenti; Victoria Delsoul; BostonGuy; Central Scrutiniser; AlGone2001...
Witnesses said they saw an explosion on one side of the plane before the crash, but different accounts placed the explosion on different sides of the aircraft. Ethan Moses said he saw the aircraft burning from its left side, then the aircraft's left engine fell off.
2 posted on 11/12/2001 9:09:02 AM PST by t-shirt
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To: t-shirt
It appears that a lone left wing nut was the culprit.
3 posted on 11/12/2001 9:09:37 AM PST by spycatcher
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To: t-shirt
Plane went in for maintenance a few days ago. How much anyone want to bet that a Muslim was on the maintenance crew?
4 posted on 11/12/2001 9:09:38 AM PST by Heisenburger
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To: t-shirt
One black box has been found and is on its way to Washington. We will know soon enough what happened. American Airlines gave a lousy news conference.
6 posted on 11/12/2001 9:11:36 AM PST by areafiftyone
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To: t-shirt
I just keep thinking back to all the foriegn nationals they still have working baggage.
Sheeese.
8 posted on 11/12/2001 9:13:14 AM PST by tomakaze
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To: t-shirt
Neil Boortz used to point out that, no matter the actual circumstances, one can always find some yahoo who saw the airplane explode in the air.
14 posted on 11/12/2001 9:18:17 AM PST by Junior
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To: t-shirt
"The wings were going backwards and forwards like it was trying to balance itself."

This was described to me once as a "Dutch roll", the effect of a trailing wing losing lift and subsequently giving the opposite wing lift in a repeating motion similar to a swimmer's backstroke.

18 posted on 11/12/2001 9:19:18 AM PST by kahoutek
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To: t-shirt
The wing appeared to separate from the rest of the plane, which veered to the left and then plunged into a nose dive, he said.

Sounds like an engine turbine failure I saw described on another thread.

From what I read, if a fin breaks loose in the turbine, it shatters other turbines in the jet engine, causing massive failure. The shrapnel flying around in the turbine will go through the wing, causing structural failure. That structural failure includes separation of the wing.

The Airbus 300 also has a rather shoddy safety record, and there have been other incidents of these types of accidents. If I can only find that post in that other thread with the links.....

21 posted on 11/12/2001 9:20:59 AM PST by usconservative
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To: t-shirt
Is it me, or is the media getting crazier in the questions they ask traumatized people? Paula Zahn asked a woman who ran from her house in the area, saying there was a fireball, "how far did you have to run to get away from the fireball?"

I guess I just don't understand the question. Plus, of course, they had to grab somebody off the street who is traumatized and can barely talk and barrage that person with questions. And Zahn would fakely say, "I'm sure it's terrible, what you saw," and then hit her with the next odd question.

23 posted on 11/12/2001 9:23:05 AM PST by wildconservatism
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To: t-shirt
From what I just heard on Fox, based on the press conference with American Airlines, the intact engine on the ground in basically one piece was the older of the two engines---the one that apparently exploded had substantially less miles.

I was just starting to get comfortable with the idea of air travel again, everyone saying "more safe than ever, now" but regardless of the reason for this crash, I'm wondering if I'll make it back to the east for the holidays. I've traversed the continent on the ground twice in the last three months---just cannot do it again.

25 posted on 11/12/2001 9:24:57 AM PST by LoneGreenEyeshade
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To: t-shirt
Fox news reporting there is a debris field in Jamacia Bay.
31 posted on 11/12/2001 9:36:32 AM PST by aomagrat
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To: t-shirt
Very sad!!
(This is not about drugs & oil, it's about tolerance in the full sense of the word!)
46 posted on 11/12/2001 9:53:59 AM PST by maestro
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To: t-shirt; Trident/Delta
This prophetic article appeared a few years ago.
It's worth reading again.

The Stinger Threat to Commerical Aviation

It's the air industry's "dirty little secret"--more than 500 travelers and crew members on non-military flights have been killed in recent years as aerial ambushers use "Stinger"-type missiles with deadly accuracy. The number of deaths from "man-portable surface to air missiles," deadly devices given the mnemonic MANPADS, appears to exceed the deaths from hijackings during the same years.

There is very little that is presently being done to prevent terrorists from downing dozens, or even hundreds of civilian planes. While travelers are financing tens of millions of dollars in airline anti-hijacking programs around the world, the airlines themselves are just crossing their fingers and whistling through the graveyard when it comes to MANPADS. They're not doing anything about the problem and they're not telling travelers about it either.

More than two dozen documented attacks against non-military aviation have killed more than 500 people in the last 15 years. The attacks have taken place on four continents--North America, Europe, Asia and Africa.

In October of 1998 rebel fighters shot down a passenger jet with 40 people on board in eastern Congo. A missile strike on the rear engine of the Boeing jet caused the plane to crash shortly after take-off from Kindu airport. The plane, carrying women and children refugees, crashed into a densely forested area just outside of Kindu, about 620 miles east of the capital, Kinshasa. Spokesmen for the rebel force preparing to attack Kindu acknowledged downing the plane but said it was carrying 40 government soldiers to the city.

There was a dispute over the plane's direction. The airline said it was hit minutes after takeoff, while rebels said they fired as the plane made its landing approach.

The rebels apparently used a SA-7, a Russian-made anti-aircraft missile with a launcher that looks like a bazooka.

In June of 1996 security officials confiscated some surface-to-air missiles missiles--this time in Colombia--as they were preparing to blow that nation's president out of the sky. In March of 1997 there were reports that Iranian-backed Palestinian groups had acquired a supply of the missiles. Military analysts said they were threatening to reduce Israel's edge in fighting there by sweeping fighter-bombers from the sky. But the reality is that they could also be used, with more deadly effectiveness, against commercial aircraft from Bombay to Boston, Belfast to Buenos Aires.

Air travel anywhere in the world--even in the United States-- is in danger from attacks by terrorists or people acting at the behest of rogue regimes. If the traveling public understood the potential danger, it's safe to say that airlines around the world lose so much business that many would go broke within six months. This is the travel industry's dirty little secret--and it is indeed a shameful one.

The Federal Aviation Agency (FAA), which is supposed to be the traveling public's guard dog, seems to have been guarding the airlines and their dirty little secret. The fact is they don't have an answer.The best semi-public information has come, surprisingly, from a State Department document on security practices.

The document, Terrorist Tactics and Security Practices, was released in February 1994 by the Bureau of Diplomatic Security. The document, prepared by the bureau's Office of Intelligence and Threat Analysis, is perhaps the best explanation of the problem made public.

According to the diplomatically-couched wording of the State Department report "there is a growing body of evidence to suggest that the threat to civil aircraft emanating from terrorist groups, rebel militias and even criminal enterprises possessing MANPADS is an increasing possibility."

"MANPADS were widely proliferated during the 1970s and 1980s. Now, after 20 years of reported instances of SAMs in the hands of rebel militias, narco-criminals, and terrorist groups, the potential for increased SAM threats to civil aircraft has become a serious reality. Recent terrorism events such as the World Trade Center bombing, and those that were prevented, underscore the fact that fanatical elements were not deterred by the potential implications of mass casualties that could occur if a man-portable SAM were used against a commercial airliner."

According to the State Department security report "another worldwide trend having implications for the safe passage of civil airliners is the growing instance of ethnic, religious, and civil unrest. Although the risk of a world war as at least temporarily passed, the ethnic and regional conflicts found in the four corners of the world indicate that perhaps our situation is more unstable than at any time in recent history. With this instability has come the risk of terrorism in new and more dangerous forms. Hundreds of MANPADs have fallen into the hands of ethnic militias that are battling against established governments."

The situation is actually worse than the report suggests. We know these weapons have made their way into the hands of narco-terrorists in drug producing regions around the world, from Colombia to Burma. Drug lords world-wide already have the technology in their arsenals--and there is every reason to point those missiles at U.S.-owned aircraft. We know that in January of 1990 CBS News authoritatively reported that Colombian narco-terrorists had acquired SA-7 heat-seeking anti-aircraft missiles and that they planned a shoot-down attempt against President Bush's plane at the February 15 drug summit in Colombia. As a result there were special security measures in place to thwart such an attack. About a month later the Colombian government said that 10 shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles were uncovered when agents raided a location in Bogota used as a hideout by drug cartels. Two men were arrested in the raid. And the threat, as it turned out, was proved to be real. In mid-1992 Thai border officers seized a Russian-made SAM-7 missile and arrested three men who were apparently taking them to Burmese drug warlord Khun Sa. Khun Sa, the region's drug kingpin who is under indictment by American authorities, isn't known as a great fan of America. And even at that time he was believed to have at least five SAM-7s. More missiles were seized in the fall of 1994 as they were being smuggled into Burma. These were apparently purchased from military people with access to them in Cambodia.

If it were true that what you don't know won't hurt you, the world would be pretty well off with regard to these mini-SAMs. That's how little we know. But the old saw isn't true at all and our abysmal lack of knowledge may well prove deadly to hundreds--or even more--of commercial airline passengers.

The State Department report alluded to our lack of knowledge: "(B)ecause of the very nature and characteristics of MANPADS, there is a great deal of uncertainty regarding their proliferation to and among terrorist groups, guerrilla movements and criminal elements. The real issue with regard to the potential use by a terrorist group in which groups have acquired MANPADs. The overriding concern in this regard is that the exact number and location of these systems cannot be accurately assessed due to the inherent characteristics of MANPADS--size, mobility and concealability.

"While we don't know anywhere near enough, we do know is that rebels around the world have these surface to air missiles. While not all of the guerrillas and terrorists have employed them against civilian aviation, many have.

They were used extensively in El Salvador, though not against civilian aviation. Rebels there had a collection of SAM-14s, SAM-7s and Redeye missiles. Similar missiles are known to have been used by guerrillas operating out of Costa Rica. The Sudanese People's Liberation Army in Sudan, Polisario Front guerrillas in Morocco, the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola, clans in Somalia, Abkazian rebels in Georgia, government opponents in Tunisia, and ZAPU insurgents in what is now Zimbabwe all have had access to these arms. We know that the Irish Republican Army and other groups involved in that long war are trying to get MANPADs, and in fact may already have them. The same goes for Croatian terrorists. Kashmiri secessionist groups are believed to have them.

There are clear indications the Abu Nidal organization, one of the most effective of all terrorist groups in the world today and an organization which seems to specialize in attacking planes and airports, has potential or real access to them. There have been credible reports that both Iraq and Libya are willing to turn over quantities of these missiles to any terrorist or insurgent group willing to carry out specific missions for it.

These problem areas pale when compared to the core problem--an explosive mixture of religious fundamentalism, anti-Israeli sentiment, and hundreds of unaccounted-for missiles given away by the U.S. to Afghan rebel groups.

"MANPADS were widely used against Soviet military aircraft-- and at least five civilian aircraft--in Afghanistan. Many people from Moslem countries elsewhere around the world came to Afghanistan to 'fight the infidel.' They became imbued with a religious fundamentalist spirit in their years there. Since the end of the war many have spread out across the globe to carry out attacks against more secular governments, from Cairo to Manila. Some of the suspects in the alleged terror ring that targeted the World Trade Center, as well as other landmarks and transportation targets, reportedly had links with the 'Afghans' as the insurgents of diverse nationalities are known to security agencies.

Stingers will be used against U.S. aircraft, at U.S. airports, sooner rather than later. Like the World Trade Center an airliner-- any airliner anywhere in the United States--represents a high- value, low risk target. The experience of the 'Afghans' in knocking down planes--including commercial jets--as well as their training place them among the most likely to use MANPAD technology against Western, particularly American, aircraft. These are well-trained and experienced men of war. They probably have the means--access to hundreds of 'Stinger'-type missiles are unaccounted for in the war- -as well as the motive and opportunity.

Defining a problem is only half the solution. It is clear that the problem of MANPAD access by terrorist/insurgent groups and irresponsible military officials is not one that the traveler can address. There are things that the traveler can do to minimize the danger from these devices, however. In all cases it is important to keep a level head. A number such as 530+ seems large. It looms as a tremendously large figure if you, someone you love, or even if someone you know, is counted among the casualties. It is an infinitesimally small number when considering the number of passengers flying non-military flights during the period it covers. When compared with the number of people dead in hijackings during the same period, it gives pause as to whether the economics of anti-hijacking measures pencil out, or whether those represent a "make work" project that is as benign as it is expensive. If there is no "quick fix" or guaranteed solution for the traveler, there are steps the individual can take to lessen the dangers from MANPAD attacks.....

United States

Having fairly successfully predicted the type of attack, target, bomb and vehicle in the World Trade Center blast, we'll take another look into the crystal ball. It seems likely that foreign- born terrorists will target a commercial airliner landing or taking off from a U.S. airfield by the year 2000. The attack will probably be staged against a higher-value target (airliner vs. executive jet). It will likely be staged at an airport that has symbolic significance, such as New York Kennedy or La Guardia, Washington National or Dulles. Los Angeles International, Chicago O'Hare, Dallas-Ft. Worth and Atlanta's field also rank high on the list of possibilities. The attack will be mounted from a location between 1/2 and three miles from the end of the airport runway. There will be no warning of the attack, but news media will receive a call claiming the downing within 30 minutes of the attack. The aircraft will fall into urban areas, creating heavy secondary casualties. When flying in the U.S., avoid the major hubs where possible. Use smaller airports where possible.

Fly aircraft that make smaller, low-value targets insofar as this is consistent with general overall safety. (Remember that in the past many smaller airlines have not had as good a safety record.

Use teleconferencing, trains, and other forms of transportation/communication in lieu of flying.

For the rest of the artilcle, click HERE.

:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's another interesting link:


51 posted on 11/12/2001 10:05:31 AM PST by ppaul
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To: archy; Inspector Harry Callahan; It'salmosttolate
FOX New just reported, "So the official government line now is that there is no evidence of any terrorism in the crash of this Airbus plane".

And now FOX is only interviewing people who didn't live in the neighborhood who are saying there was no explosion and no flames, but simply parts were falling off. The Last women that FOX just interviewed who is a government worker who was on 128th street when the plane went down, yet claims she is certain that there were no flames or an explosion--in complete contradiction of all the eyewitnesses who lived in the neighborhood and the street where it crashed.

58 posted on 11/12/2001 10:13:37 AM PST by t-shirt
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All it takes is a microscopic crack in a fan blade. OTOH, I don't think that would cause the engine to fall off.
64 posted on 11/12/2001 10:33:21 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: t-shirt
I think this is pretty obviously the work of right wing extremists!!! Time to "round up the usual suspects".
68 posted on 11/12/2001 10:39:55 AM PST by The Duke
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To: t-shirt
bttt
81 posted on 11/12/2001 11:06:03 AM PST by Lady GOP
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To: t-shirt
Please forgive any errors..I transcribed this off TV.

On Fox 5 NY a man named Kenneth Brown said this to Rosanna ? and John ?

John: Ken, you there?

Ken, yes yes I am.

John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?

Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.

John:Where was the plane at that moment?

Ken: Right over the bay. Right over the bay

John So is it almost right above you?

Ken: Yes, kinda to the north of us, cause we where more to the east channel drive at that time, on that side of Jamaica Bay and um the pieces that came off the wing...flew into the um tail and tore the tail off and as soon as that happened the plane went belly up towards us and towards the east and it just dove straight down, like the uhh the belly of the plane actually turned toward the south and it went straight down into the ground.

John: So you saw some big pieces of this plane come off...

Ken:We was the first ones on the scene and then the police boat came and we helped them pick up parts of the boat..uh..parts a the plane. We actually took up the blue A off of the tail we put that in the boat. Ummm the picture of the....another piece of the whole top of the tail with the flag on it was laying in shallow water. We took up allot of pieces of the boat...the plane we put it on the boat and took them in to the police boat an helped load em onto the police boat but a a the engine

Rosannabreaks in: Well it sounds like you have some crucial information Ken...

His voice rising Ken says: See the engine...everybody keeps saying the engine fell off...if it fell off it fell off on the way down....

John:U Huh

Ken: That plane as soon as its tail came off it just bellied up and went straight down, so yah know people saying yah know the engine came off, but that came off after the fact. Now as far as explosion, something was happening over the bay, something made the wing shatter and took of the tail. and uh the way I seen it , it still looked like it had its engines on as it was going down.

John: Have you spoken to anyone there uh Ken have you talked to any members of the..

Ken Yeh a yeh police I gave the police a guy in a police boat my name and all that and when I was helping em with ya know the parts of the plane

Woman Ken you sound very shacking up , I'm sure this has..

Ken:   I'm still shacking, its a its just a terrible sight. Ya know its something ya see on a movie Ya know how the plane..ya just just knew it..that it wouldn't, as it was going down I was saying hit the ocean hit the ocean thinking ya know maybe it cleared, its only 4 blocks wide but the plane just turned over and came straight down. It was..its a sight to see..it was ya know stunned me

Woman Were you able to keep your composure and think clearly at that point?

Ken: Yes, actually actually the things was starting to fly down toward the boat so we backed up a little bit toward the the trestles the A train trestle and then we came back to see if they was any...ah cause at one time I thought I could see a seat but I wasn't even sure, Nothing heavy came down, everything floated down

Woman: Do you think you got everything that was in the water?

Ken Mostly everything that was floating yah. Cause a the police boat came like the within 5 minutes..3 minutes maybe but that plane was gone in 6 seconds, when I heard the popping sound and seen the flames seen the uh wing hit the back tail an that came off it couldn't a been more than 3 seconds for it was down

John: So your saying the wing came off and hit the tail?

Ken: Parts yes...the whole section of the tail was what we recovered. The A the little flag on the top of the tail section that whole section, like the 30 foot top of that was stuck in the sand...in the water about 5 feet of water but there was other pieces floating around..as a matter of fact I took the blue A and we pulled that part on the boat and brought it over to the police boat. They was asking for our help then allot of boats came by allot of police boats

John:Nick your sitting hearing what Ken is saying that if any any questions for him?

Nick Well um it sounds like Ken is your describing is a again that something exploded uh to cause these pieces of the wing to come out. Is that what you sug..

Ken: Exactly something happened to that wing that sent pieces of it back to the tail.

John was it the left wing or the right wing Ken do ya know?

Ken ahh see now like my friend..well.. a it bellied up to me and a when it bellied up to the east it a looked like the right wing cause the left wing still looked intact to me. It looked like the right wing had come off..or part of it

John: well that would fit with what the

(over talk..engine..saying..?)Nick: Unnn but again Ken Kinda saying the engine fell off after the fact but still potentially the engine exploding could could cause pieces of the engine to fly I mean what may have happened was a a series of events where pieces if the engine actually flew back and struck the tail or even that pieces of the engine and the wing at the same time so a but a Kens observations of the tail is a very interesting clue

John Do you live around there Ken?

Ken Yes, I live in Hamilton beach right off Jamaica Bay and a thats the whole thing..That plane would have went over Rockaway cause it was still like level until the tail came off and then it just bellied up and spun around and came straight down uh otherwise it would..that tail..as soon as it shattered thats when the plane lost everything

Nick: Now Ken did you see actual flames coming out of an engine that was..?  

Ken: There was flames on the belly of the plane..I don't know weather it was the engine or ya know, but the plane bellied up towards us as it was going down and flames in the a..in that vicinity of the engines or whatever like underneath the plane

Well Ken we a thank you for your time

Ken: No Problem

99 posted on 11/12/2001 11:40:18 AM PST by Native American Female Vet
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To: t-shirt
F.O.D. kills
139 posted on 11/12/2001 12:55:01 PM PST by Terrorista Nada
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To: t-shirt
"First I heard a big explosion. Then I saw flames come out from behind the plane. And then a whole wing with the engine fell off." - Antonio Villela, a construction worker.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGATP04RYTC.html

143 posted on 11/12/2001 12:59:36 PM PST by Terrorista Nada
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