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For what it's worth, Dr. Hathout's arguments on human life are excellent.

As a Catholic, I consider Islam a heresy. It's therefore only natural to me that among Muslims -- as with the various Christian sects -- there is found a spectrum of Personal Interpretation. Some of which leads only to a certain incoherence overcome only by the abandoning of reason and the more deluded and dangerous of which leads to "radicalism", judgmentalism and plain old bigoted hatred.

It's purely my opinion (having read the entire book, understood a bit of his history and applauded his arguments on human life, family and love) that Hathout is not only a faithful Muslim but on the end most closely aligned to veneration of and obedience to Objective -- and therefore universal -- truth.

This is posted for CIVIL discusson purposes only. You can bet I'll probably link in some sound teaching on the Church's precepts re: the Trinity, original sin, evil, etc., but will do so only in order to correct what misunderstandings are apparent from his words. (Or, perhaps I'll just flag some of my Protestant and Unitarian friends to the post so's they can use his arguments ... =)

Sorry for posting the whole chapter (in lieu of the whole book ...) but I think it valuable to listen to a man who presents a far more true picture of Islam's tenet's and a faithful Muslim's understanding of same ... as opposed to the media and our government's painting of all militantly faithful (like me or opponents of abortion) as the equivalent of "radical fundamentalists".

"Radical Islam" is just communist repression and terror masquerading under cover of Islam. It's the equivalent (only different) of the way perverted Liberation Theology and Social Justice turns heretofore Christian soldiers into peace & justice pansies.

In a purely deterministic universe suffused in but informed by the heresy of historicism, it's different strokes for different folks as you triangulate the People of the Book ... moving the Jews like abacus beads back and forth to "send a message" or mark the current weight of leverage points on the World Peace See-saw the globalists are riding to the World State.

1 posted on 11/10/2001 4:30:58 PM PST by Askel5
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To: Askel5
"Radical Islam" is just communist repression and terror masquerading under cover of Islam. It's the equivalent (only different) of the way perverted Liberation Theology and Social Justice turns heretofore Christian soldiers into peace & justice pansies

Interesting parallel although unhelpful. "Radical Islam" is a phenomenon of historical continuity. It wasn't created as a phenomenon because of concurrent processes. Islam began with the sword and expanded at an unrelenting pace as Jihad not merely as militaristic and geo-political expansionism but as an intrinsic religious concept based on the Koran. There is no basis to suggest that "radical Islam" is an anomaly.

And I wish to God that Islam or a significant portion of it and its adherents would have moved to a Liberation Theology phenomenological expression. The fact that this was an outgrowth of panentheistic (or process philosophy re Whitehead and Hartshorne)thought on Catholic theology indicates that the West and Christendom was open to influences and reform (for better or worse). The same is not true in large part of Islam (remember that Bernard Lewsi quote?).

2 posted on 11/10/2001 4:51:41 PM PST by Lent
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To: Askel5
In the Muslim world Jews never suffered anything like the atrocities inflicted on them by Christian Europe over the centuries, including the holocaust in this century. It was in Christendom that the Jews were branded as killers of God and made to pay for it through one pogrom after another. Even when the enemy was Muslims, Europe always included the Jews as "collateral damage." The first Crusade was launched by the massacre of thousands of Jews in Europe, with this mischievous rationalization: "We have set out to march a long way to fight the enemies of God in the East, and behold before our very eyes are his worst foes, the Jews. They must be dealt with first. [Cohn, Norman. The Pursuit of the Millennium. Quoted in Bamber Gascoigne, The Christians (London: Jonathan Cape, 1977), 113.]

This is false in so many ways that I think, Aske15, as a Catholic you should not let this claim stand. All the way from the treatment of Jews to the Crusades it is based on the author's distorted Islamic historical perceptions. I think it wise you address this issue and dispel it because the author has lost enormous credibility in these statements alone. Of course, maybe you don't want to salvage his credibility.

4 posted on 11/10/2001 5:05:09 PM PST by Lent
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To: Askel5
Interesting. Food for thought.
5 posted on 11/10/2001 5:13:23 PM PST by nopardons
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To: Askel5
Bookmarked for later reading & Bunker's narrow mind
6 posted on 11/10/2001 5:20:14 PM PST by Archie Bunker on steroids
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To: Askel5
This should have been posted with a Propaganda alert
7 posted on 11/10/2001 5:21:27 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: malador
Bump
10 posted on 11/10/2001 5:52:37 PM PST by Architect
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To: Askel5
"... the civilization of the Islamic era furnished the foundation for the present civilization. It was a civilization in which Muslims, Jews, Christians, and others lived in safety and justice under a system of tolerance and cooperation."

Notice that the word 'was' is past tense. Of the 30 skirmishes around the world today, 28 involve Islamic countries ... so we know whom it is which no longer has tolerance nor cooperation.

11 posted on 11/10/2001 6:07:23 PM PST by moonman
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To: Askel5
The Muslin/Arabprop Tag Team is out in full force this weekend...
Do I sense a touch of desperation and hysteria?
15 posted on 11/10/2001 7:09:42 PM PST by Publius6961
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To: Askel5
Muslims are astounded and dumbfounded when they read notable scholars, specialists and, most painful of all, clergy, portraying Islam and Muslims as the enemies of Christ.

LOL! Does the phrase "The Quran or the Sword" ring a bell?!

My wife's family fled Hungary in the 1950's. Hungarians still have vivid memories of the terror, rape, murder, and slavery inflicted upon Hungarian Christians, Jews and any other nonMuslim group by Ottoman Muslims.

16 posted on 11/10/2001 7:16:27 PM PST by jimkress
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To: Askel5
Before the birth of Sarah's son, Isaac, Abraham had married Hagar, who conceived and gave birth to Ishmael.

Abraham NEVER married Hagar. Sarah did not believe the promise of God and decided to take matters into her own hands. Sarah convinced Abraham to go to Hagar and have a child by her. Hagar was a concubine, not a wife.

18 posted on 11/10/2001 7:20:32 PM PST by Florida native
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To: Askel5
The Crusades were an attempt to directly invade the Muslim heartland. At the time the justification was to free the Christian sacred places in Jerusalem from the Muslims, and for over two centuries the Crusades evoked a religious furor that still lingers over the Western mind and shapes Western culture in some ways. This continues even though contemporary mainstream Christianity has condemned the Crusades and branded them as having been no more than colonialist-driven wars that donned the cloak of Christianity while committing such atrocities as to be an affront on Christianity itself.

Does the religious fervor of the Crusades "linger" over the Western mind or shape our culture? I don't think so. In contrast, too many in the Muslim world seem obsessed by the Crusades.

There is a difference between learning from the past and living in it.

20 posted on 11/10/2001 7:28:40 PM PST by Logophile
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To: Askel5
Here's my take... You can parse the words in the Koran and probably find lots of different concepts, just like you can in the Bible or most other religious texts. And every religion has a few crazies that either take something way too literally or take something out of context in the religious writings. So you can't blame Christianity for giving us Jim Jones, David Koresh or whomever, and you probably cannot blame Islam for giving us Osama. But you have to ask why Islam seems to create so many more fanatics than Christianity or Judaism.

I would venture to say that the answer lies in the heart of Islam itself. In Islam, the belief is that Allah (God) dictated the words of the Koran to Mohammed. What Mohammed wrote was exactly God's word. So a translation from Arabic is not really a valid Koran. Compare this to Christianity: the King James Bible is considered just as valid as a Bible written in Norwegian or Tagalog. Since Allah supposedly spoke the exact words in the Koran, there's no room for reinterpretation.

If someone tried to follow the Old Testament to the letter, they'd get arrested. There are things in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that are just plain crazy. So we don't follow them. We don't stone our kids when they misbehave, we don't say you can go to the next country and grab a woman if you like her and bring her back here and make you her wife. But since we believe that God didn't write the Bible directly, it doesn't much matter.

There are those in the Islamic world who've ignored the more harsher parts of the Koran -- after all, this book is about 1500 years old. But many don't. It's not as easy for them to maintain their belief system while doing this. So you wind up with a sizable portion of Muslims believing in the most rigid form of Islam.

This most rigid form, however, isn't really compatible with the 21st century. The subjugation of women, the prohibition on interest rates, the polygamy, and all the rest essentially stop a modern society from functioning. There's no marketplace of ideas, no technological improvements, and without interest rates, no monetary system possible. This brings poverty (unless there's an overabundance of natural resources), which brings more fanaticism.

27 posted on 11/10/2001 8:19:27 PM PST by Koblenz
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To: Askel5
Hatout seems to be going "Haminahaminahamina"!
30 posted on 11/10/2001 8:53:54 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: Askel5
I'm disappointed that you're so impressed by this piece. He says, for example, that Islam recognizes both Christianity and Judaism as religions based upon divine revelation - and then goes on to explain that they disagree with virtually everything written in the Bible.

God didn't create man in His image, and didn't walk in Eden. Abraham offered Ishmael, not Isaac, as a sacrifice. Moses never struck the rock in anger, David never commited adultery with Bathsheba, and Jesus - who was not the Son of God - was not crucified. Just what divine revelation is he speaking of???

A brief study of the koran/qu'ran will demonstrate that he quoted the highest sounding, most kind and tolerant passages, while choosing to leave out the many passages that prohibit friendship with Jews/Christians, and encourage their slaughter instead.

He can speak of peace and tolerance and "can't we all get along" all he wants, but Islam has been violent and intolerant from the start, in the koran, in the hadith, throughout history, and into today's current events. Remember what Jesus said about the tree and its fruit.

40 posted on 11/10/2001 11:02:40 PM PST by watchin
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To: Askel5
BTTT
47 posted on 11/11/2001 8:41:34 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: Askel5
Nice try by the good Dr., I just ain't buying.
48 posted on 11/11/2001 8:47:00 AM PST by Republic of Texas
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To: Askel5
Been thinking about this a quite a bit lately. I am willing to admit being wrong in fluffing off you communist connection theory. Upon further reflection, its evident that many of the Taliban spewing forth Arabic diatribes are the European-educated sons of businessmen who drink heavily of our Coca-Cola and languish in the comfort of our consumer society, attending the London School of Economics where they mix their Mohammed with their Marx.
65 posted on 07/29/2002 10:03:00 AM PDT by JMJ333
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