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MCSEs: We are all idiots
Myelabs.com ^ | 11/5/01 11:44:36 AM | Editorial Staff

Posted on 11/06/2001 7:11:47 PM PST by Justa

MCSEs: We are all idiots
Date:11/5/01 11:44:36 AM

As we watch our economy slide effortlessly down the road to a solid recession

Introduction:

    As we watch our economy slide effortlessly down the road to a solid recession, the IT and airline industries are fiercely competing for the coveted 'most jobs cut' award.  As a response to this and to last year's enormous .com bust, technical institutes, universities, community colleges and seminars that made it their mission, starting a few years ago, to quickly and efficiently pour additional 'qualified' people into the then undermanned  and rapidly expanding IT workforce have come to the realization that it is time to slow their efforts and look for alternative courses and programs to pursue.  Right?  Not one bit.  I wouldn't go as far as to say that the opposite is happening, but let's put it this way, if you haven't seen an ITT Technical Institute commercial in recent weeks praising the value and quality of their networking and other IT courses and assuring the promise of a bright future for those who join these programs, you don't have TV.

    One of the largest issues negatively affecting the health of the today's IT industry is the continued pursuit of failed, and increasingly meaningless certification programs, the most dangerous one of all being Microsoft's MCSE certification.  And since there are too many IT certifications out there to spend time evaluating the true value of each one, let's focus on Microsoft's popular MCSE (Microsoft Certified System Engineer) certification since it has in fact managed to process over 400,000 people into MCSE in the last few years.  For those who are not familiar with this program, it is in short a certification obtained by passing 6 or 7 exams related to computer networking using Microsoft's popular Windows NT or Windows 2000 operating systems and is aimed to enable MCSEs to design, install, support and troubleshoot information systems based on Microsoft Corp. software.  There are no other requirements besides passing the exams, no college level credits required, no proof of class attendance. 

    Just to remove the element of surprise, I intend, in the following article to do my best to expose the misinformation and straight lies that keep the MCSE certification process from being remodeled into an efficient program that could truly benefit the IT industry and its customers instead of making a mockery out of both.  How can I be so cruel as to attempt to dash the hopes of those poor souls who are currently on page 3 of their networking essentials book?  Well, there's an MCSE 'diploma' with my name on it at home, somewhere, and the only thing I really feel certified as is an idiot for having wasted the money to acquire it.    

Background:

    Certifications are not a new concept, they have been around in fields such the automotive industry for many years, but the IT certifications rose to fame very quickly 4 or 5 years ago when the industry was in dire need of a large and immediate input of 'qualified' employees and did not have the patience or possibility of waiting for those working on 4-year degrees to fill the various positions that were opening at an alarming rate in the technology field.  The certification process therefore enabled the industry to expect a large supply of potential employees who learned their skills in a matter of a few months or less instead of the years it took for college grads to enter the market.  Besides the benefit of a quickly trained supply of fresh employees, new certifications could also be quickly created and existing ones modified according to the latest industry developments something which is just not possible with standard 4 year college curriculums.  As a result, those who sought there certifications were thought to be more up to speed on the very latest technologies as opposed to college grads who started their computer education with basic and largely archaic skills and worked their way up to more modern technologies, building a much deeper understanding and greater knowledge along the way.  As far as those who were already employed in the industry are concerned, certifications were a relatively easy way for their employers to encourage them to learn new skills to keep up with ever changing technologies and be presented with proof that the classes they provided their employees with were taken seriously enough for them to pass the exams.

How popular are Microsoft's various certifications?

Microsoft Certified Technical Education Centers are spreading at an alarming rate.
If you're thinking about taking your MCSE certification course in Namibia but are worried that because your country's population size barely exceeds that of Detroit's you might not find a Microsoft Certified school or testing center, don't worry, you'll find your local Microsoft Certified academy's contact information on the right. 

Information Technology Learning Academy
Windhoek, Namibia  NAM
(61) 223-763

Testing Center:
INSTITUTE OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
79 HOSEA KUTAKO DRIVE
WINDHOEK, 
264 61 253 141

The current situation:

A little over a year ago, I picked up a book entitled "SQL in 10 Minutes" (published by SAMS in 2000), you could read it over and over again for a solid decade and not know SQL at all, but it's good for a couple of laughs here and there.  For those of you who don't know what SQL is, the title of this book is equivalent to something on the order of  "How to landscape your yard if you don't have one".  Unfortunately, the title of this book reflects to a large degree the much abused sense of urgency that has rendered programs like the MCSE certification simply incapable of truly assuring employers and employees alike that they have indeed learned the skill sets supposedly required to pass the exams, the rush to get it done simply does not push students to learn any more than they must to pass the exams.

But how much did the industry as a whole suffer from this massive input of low quality labor?

I'm not sure whether Microsoft and all of the other companies who benefit from the MCSE program and desperately want to keep it going realize it or not, but they are actually doing a great disservice to not only those who wish to work in the IT industry and those who already do but also to the businesses that hire these people.  How did this certification frenzy hurt the industry you ask?  Well, an impressive number of people whose extensive hands on computing experience allowed them not much more than to easily dominate their friends in Quake, were hired to participate in overseeing corporate networks after completing their MCSE certifications in a few weeks.  The biggest backlash of this is a widespread lack of proper security planning and implementation over much of the internet:

"IT professionals and trainers are blaming insufficient security training offered under the nationwide Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer program for contributing to the spread of "Code Red" and other damaging viruses."
Dan Verton, CNN, August 14, 2001

The biggest mistake made by both those who relied on getting certified to find work and those who did the hiring was confusing the real meaning of the certification, being certified meant and still means that a person managed to pass some relatively simple exams, nothing more, it does not in any way assure a certain level of expertise or experience.

The result of this madness?

The number of unemployed MCSEs should soon rival with the number of the employed variety.  The number of expensive mistakes made by inexperienced, unknowledgeable and poorly trained MCSEs is unimaginable.  The cost in terms of lost productivity, data loss, and other damage resulting from these employees' mistakes will probably soon warrant its own heading on corporate balance sheets. 

The result of having over 400,000 MCSEs in the United States:
The following is a comparison of the number of job listings for the Los Angeles area and under different skill headings from computerjobs.com (10/02/01)
Heading: # of Jobs Listed:
MCSE 4
Java 38
Cobol 20
DB2 18
Some additional cheery numbers:
Searches for the keyword MCSE in the employment sections of various newspapers and online job listing sites for the San Diego/LA area on 10/02/01:
Source: # of hits:
Union Tribune (San Diego's main publication) 2
Monster.com 3
Dice.com 2
Hotjobs.com 2
The lack of new positions for MCSEs as compared to those knowledgeable in both current technologies such as Java and even legacy technologies such as Cobol or DB2 goes a long way to show that the not only is the MCSE not all that impressive, but also that nearly half a million MCSEs must be plenty enough.
And back for more certifications we go...
MCSE / MCSE+I CCNA or higher Frame Relay / ATM knowledge (DLCI, PVC structures and designs) AMI-D4/B8ZS-esF Channelized / Non-Channelized knowledge Sniffer / Radcom LAN/WAN / VoIP Analyzers HP Open View / Cisco Works / Cajun View / NetIQ Chariot IP-Based

(Computerjobs.com) List of required skills for a recently advertised $40K/yr position.

What keeps the failed and overcrowded MCSE certification program going?:

How can a program so heavily flawed, so void of real value, and so expensive survive?

While unemployment in the IT sector grows faster than we can keep track of it, while ineffective certification programs, such as the MCSE cert., are increasingly being recognized for what they really are and as companies are starting to realize the losses they suffer from hiring poorly trained certification-brandishing applicants, MCSE classes are packed.

Much of the reason for this is the incredible volume of propaganda that surrounds this program and others like it, all parties involved that stand to profit from the continuation of this madness keep applying pressure to avoid serious interruptions to the certification frenzy.  

Microsoft and co.:

It is certain that Microsoft uses their many certification programs as tools to lock customers into its specific products and platforms, this is also true of Novell, Oracle and Cisco of course.  This effect comes directly into play when companies seeking to upgrade existing servers and workstations or to add new systems, ask for their IT staff's advice as to operating system and other hardware choices, most employees undoubtedly select whatever platform they are either familiar with or certified to manage.

Is Microsoft responding to the current lack of opportunity in the IT industry since its certifications and the rush to qualify a staggering number of people significantly contributed to the problem? 
And is Microsoft making the required changes to prevent people who are not qualified, not experienced or who have simply not bothered to study from passing the exams and receiving their certifications anyway?
No.  There seems to be no move to try and limit the number of centers Microsoft certifies to teach these classes, and there seems to be no intention on Microsoft's part to either expand on the requirements for receiving the certification or to increase the difficulty and change the format of the tests themselves. 

A short-lived sense of relief came over me when I noticed that Microsoft had added yet another certification to their repertoire, the MCSA, which might have refuted everything I've just said if it were a much more intensive and demanding revision of the MCSE certification as it might have resulted in a reasonable number of better trained and qualified people filling the positions that still exist in this IT mess, but in fact, it's quite the opposite, a less demanding program with fewer exams and therefore a greater output of half-qualified and largely inexperienced future job seekers... a fantastic idea.

Testing centers:

Testing centers, which have been established in locations ranging from technical schools to flight schools (114 centers in California), stand to lose a considerable steady source of income if the continuous flow of certification seekers somehow diminished.  The majority of the 400,000+ MCSEs out there have spent $100 on each of the 6 or 7 exams required to obtain their certification, that translates into a total of  over $240 million which does not take into account the other 100s of thousands of people who took tests to accomplish certifications such as MCP, CCNA, MCSD, CNE, CNA...

Exam prep. material, Transcender is smiling from ear to ear. 

A DVD-ROM might have the capacity to hold the list of publications which include the word "MCSE" in their titles.  But we'll leave publishers alone after having simply said that there are hundreds if not thousands of books published with the only and specific purpose of preparing students to pass the MCSE exams, and the number of copies sold must be quite impressive indeed.

Let's instead focus on an interesting and fortunate company in the exam prep. area, the Transcender Corporation.
Transcender pretty much has a monopoly on the practice test (or mock exam) industry when it comes to many certifications, including the MCSE.  The practice tests provided are shockingly similar to the actual tests, right down to the format and questions themselves, and cost between $99 and $198 each with most costing $149.  The popularity of these practice tests is quite impressive, and because students realize that they are extremely effective, Transcender stands to potentially pocket around $800 to $900 from each student.
The downside for employers and employees alike is that someone who spends enough time (a few days) practicing these tests in order to pretty much memorize the questions and answers, will more than likely pass the actual exam whether he or she has bothered to open a book or has any skills or knowledge on the topic at all.  
Whether the fact that so many unqualified people manage to obtain their certifications in this manner should be blamed on Transcender, Microsoft or anyone at all, the result is the same, the MCSE certification loses much of its value in the eyes of both employers and those certified, as it should.

Online job listing services:

Job listing sites rely not only on job postings (the volume of which has tremendously diminished) for their income, but also on job seekers' visits in order to justify their banner prices to advertisers.  Newly certified and inexperienced applicants provide these sites with a healthy traffic volume and in response to the current size of the unemployed IT workers pool, Monster.com has recently launched an advertising campaign in order to draw some traffic to their site from the crowd of 'I can't believe I made a mistake this large' burger-flipping MCSEs out there.  These advertising campaigns, not only bring job seekers in for a visit, but also send the wrong message to those who are considering a move from their current industry to the IT sector by giving them the impression that these sites are just overflowing with opportunities, nothing could be further from the truth.

Job seekers:

Those who have taken and passed the exams required to receive their MCSE certification and who relied and still rely on it to open doors for them despite their utter lack of previous experience or even solid understanding of the topics they were tested on are quite happy with the way the MCSE requirements and exams are currently structured.  Many of them, along with the schools that taught them, frowned at Microsoft's attempt to discourage others from following in their footsteps by switching from straight forward multiple choice exams to an adaptive format that respond to correct answers by asking tougher questions and vice versa.  The simplicity of the exams, the ability to pass them by simply practicing on or memorizing mock tests, and the large demand for IT personnel up to about 2 years ago combined with the disproportionately high salaries enjoyed in the IT industry at that time made it all too attractive an offer to resist, even for those who weren't all that motivated by the industry as a whole.

Certified and non-certified training centers:

And then of course, there are the variety of technical education centers founded around nothing else but teaching classes aimed at helping students pass the exams required to obtain various certifications.  This very specialized industry racks in an impressive amount of money and the volume of misinformation they feed to their existing and prospective students would be amusing if it didn't rob so many of them out of their money to no avail.  Having taught over 400,000+ MCSEs alone in the last few years, this industry has grown at an alarming rate, between technical colleges, specialized training facilities, boot camp organizations and all the way up to state and private colleges and universities, the income derived from charging students or their employers between $2,000 and $10,000 each for MCSE certification classes translates into revenues in the $800 million to $4 billion range, and this over last 5 years at the most, since the fever began.  What is the standard response received by disillusioned recently certified students who have either not found work or not received any type of raise or promotion from their certification?  More certifications.  And although this eventually might lead to a skilled workforce of people who actually stick to it instead of calling it quits, it isn't for that reason that schools recommend this approach of accumulating a bag full of certifications.

The most alarming example of just how much money was flat out stolen from individuals and companies who fell victim to the MCSE disaster is the concept of the MCSE 'boot camp'.

MCSE boot camps: theft in its purest form.
The concept of the MCSE boot camp is just baffling.  For an employer or an individual to see some kind of value in learning what for many is a completely new skill or even a chance at a new career in 12 days is just disappointing.  The mere idea that you can obtain a supposedly difficult certification in that amount of time devalues it tremendously.
A couple of exams, a few long walks on the beach and $7000 later they send you home with your MCSE and a complimentary oatmeal cookie.
If you listen carefully at night, you can hear the boot camp 'graduates' or their employers pulling their hair out slowly to maximize the pain.
Excerpt from MCSEclasses.com:
"Learn your MCSE material at many vacation destinations throughout the country! MCSE Boot Camps and MCDBA Boot Camps run for 12 days (mornings-evenings with afternoons off in national parks and beaches so you can enjoy the day)!" Price: $6495, airfare and lodging included.
A few less and more expensive choices:
Company # Days Hotel
Incl.
 Price 
HOTT 15 YES  $4485 
Ameriteach 12 NO  $7495 
CED Solutions 14 YES  $6495 
Global Knowledge 14 NO  $8995 
Northwest Computer Training 13 YES  $6599 
The Training Camp 12 YES  $7495 
New Horizons 15 NO  $6375 

The training center industry has in fact grown so large, that it is now increasingly hiring a larger percentage of the people it itself has trained than most other industries!  ITT Technical Institute recently ran the ad below seeking to fill an instructor position, it was 1 out of a total of 4 ads under the MCSE heading in the Los Angeles section of computerjobs.com.


CNS Instructor


Looking for a position that will give you the opportunity to enhance the lives of others? We truly believe that the future of our nation's workforce is being developed right here and are looking for people who would like to be part of the team building this future ... 

Required Skills:
3 years of exp. in systems administration, network architecture, GUI, NT, TCP/IP, Linux, LAN/WAN, or Novell and a bachelor's degree, we would like to hear from you. An MCSE, MCP, CNE, CCNA, CCNP, and/or CNA is desirable

ITT Technical Institute Torrance, CA Full Time 11/1/2001

Employers:

Probably most disappointing of all, is the fact that employers also fall victim to the certification hysteria, and those who know quite well how over glorified the program is are no exception.  Since the program's inception, companies who realized that it was often exploited by inexperienced applicants seeking to get in the door routinely tested these applicants through short oral or written quizzes to try and weed out the more obvious impostors, but even those who are convinced of the program's lack of real value are more than happy to advertise their staff's various certifications in order to secure business for themselves.  Just as nationwide automotive maintenance and repair chains regularly boast that all of their mechanics are ASE certified, so do large technical support and other IT consulting firms when it comes to their employees' MCSE and other certifications.  This fact forces companies in that sector, whether they believe in the certification process or see it for what it is, to send many of their employees to acquire these certifications in order to instill some false sense of confidence in their customers' minds.  This behavior gives the certification frenzy cycle some additional momentum, and manages to convince job seekers that there indeed is some real value to the MCSE program.

Conclusion:

Obtaining an MCSE certification does not have to be a meaningless endeavor, and there are those who go through the process for the explicit purpose of learning the material they need to be familiar with instead of simply trying to pass the exams as soon as possible.  In that sense, the MCSE certification can be a positive step forward for those who truly wish to have it be just that and who recognize that they will have to learn more on their own than that which is required to pass the exams.  However, you can't have a program be successful and meaningful and warrant the creation of a multi-billion dollar industry, if it results in the certification of people who may have actually made an effort to learn something and of others who just aimed at passing a handful of exams to get it behind them.  This is the basic flaw of the MCSE certification process, the ease with which it can be be taken advantage of by some diminishes its overall value and devalues the efforts of those who take the program seriously, this is why a complete restructuring of the program and of its requirements is not only a good idea, but is actually owed to those who wish to join it for the right reasons.

In the minds of many employers and MCSEs, the certification has become nothing short of a joke with the many parties profiting from it trying to keep the laughter down and therefore the backing needed to incite a thorough reexamination of the program in order to turn it into what is was originally supposed to be, and never was, simply isn't there.  After all, I too believe that the program was originally supposed to result in individuals being certified as people who have actually acquired some solid, thorough and meaningful knowledge of a particular product or service (in this case, Microsoft's Windows NT or 2000 based networking technologies).

The best possible way to get out of this mess is to discourage those who are not truly committed to learning the skills required to do the job they are supposed to be training for.  And the only way to do this is to rebuild the MCSE program from scratch, no part of its current format should survive this revision except for the original concept which I hope was based around correctly and meaningfully teaching the skills needed by those who desire to enter the IT industry's networking field and certifying their knowledge by requiring that they pass a series of rigorous examinations after having spent a required amount of class time, and having covered specific topics, in certified training centers and universities.

Instead of this restructuring, we seem to be rapidly heading for a situation where more total income will be generated by training, testing and advertising to MCSE certified and certification bound individuals than employers stand to profit from the hiring of these people as a whole, and as ridiculous and illogical as that may sound, the propaganda generated by the variety of individuals and companies that stand to gain from such a situation is loud enough to keep the silliness going for a while yet.

Is there any good news you ask?  Of course there is, the Silicon Valley housing shortage problem has improved considerably, and if you decide to move to the area I'm convinced that your realtor will throw in a couple of MCSEs to paint the place.

 
[Embedding used to support tables]


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial
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To: Justa
I have to say that overall, I agree. There are too many cert seekers. Some of the replies to this thread recommend going for Linux or Cisco certs. Well, guess what. . . Those markets are in the toilet too. I'm a Cisco Instructor and a CCIE. When my company went bankrupt and dumped me (along with the rest of the instructor/consultant core), I thought I'd have a job immediately based on my background. It should be easy for a published CCIE to get a job, right? NO.

Well, I found one after a month. It came with a 30% pay cut however. I'm not overly happy about that.

The issue at the moment is that there a literally thousands of CCNA/MCSE's looking for entry level stuff. The barrier they're hitting is that all the entry level stuff has been filled by people with 5+ years experience. So, it's virtually impossible to break into the market.

As an instructor, I get physically ill at the cert chasers. Even though they pay the bills. I don't teach the exams. I teach the technologies. I tell them straight up that I really don't care if they're in exam prep mode, I'm here to teach real-world technologies.

Those people who post on the newsgroups, etc. bragging about the fact that they're paper certified and have never touched the gear make me sick. They usually suffer a bombardment of flames letting them know how much the fact that they're devaluing the certifications of those of us who have worked our butts off for this.

I've been a victim of the cert madness. But, I'd been doing this stuff for years before I got any cert. The cert newbies don't want to pay their dues, get some bruises and actually learn the concepts. They just want their piece of paper and think they should get a $200K/yr job since they got their CNE. Get real.

I'll shut up now.

Csconerd: MCNE, MCSE, CCSI, CCIE, ABCD, ASAP, RSVP. . . and so on.

81 posted on 11/08/2001 7:25:42 PM PST by csconerd
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To: csconerd
So you back in TX now, is this where you took the pay cut? I'd keep looking if you had to take -30%. Or do consulting. My brother does consulting back East and he doesn't have any certifications, just 5 years with NT4, '95/'98, hardware and now he's reading Linux. He does real estate to put food on the table though.

I'm (still) waiting on some Fed. jobs I've put in for based upon my investigative background and security clearance. So, I probably go chase another cert. while I wait. I'm just not finding any computer-related work locally.

I advise looking around continually, I've seen some really wild wage fluctuations for essentially the same job.

82 posted on 11/08/2001 8:01:28 PM PST by Justa
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To: ikka
Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

Yes and no... You really need the knowledge, but even if you have it, with no certification, a lot of doors will be closed to you.

FWIW, I spent 4 1/2 years as a Novell instructor. I've been working with Novell networks since 1989, and I'm struggling to find the time to get my MCSE (I'm already an Novell MCNI/MCNE, Cisco CCNA, Compaq ASP, CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, and Certified Technical Trainer), while keeping up to date with Novell's new products!

Mark

83 posted on 11/08/2001 8:07:49 PM PST by MarkL
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To: Justin Thyme
Could be worse....you could be a CNE!! Talk about a dinasaur in the IT field.

Hey! I resemble that remark! Novell is losing the marketing battle, but their technology is top notch!

But seriously, Novell CNEs flooded the market some years ago, just like MCSE are flooding the market now... I went through the CNE training back in 1989-1990, when the tests were still open book, but if you had to look up more than 2 or three questions, you'd run out of time and fail the test...

There are still some certification that really test on knowledge and experiance, not just memorization. Novell's Admin & Advanced Admin tests both have "hands on" simulators where you have to use the utilities to accomplish certain tasks. And the Certified Directory Engineer certification is a real bear to pass, especially the "practical exam," where you use PC Anywhere to login to a network set up by Novell that's had it's Directory Services sabotaged, and you have to fix it within a certain time period. One of the most difficult tests I've ever taken.

And of course, the grand daddy of all "real" certifications is the Cisco CCIE, with it's "practical" exam!

Mark

MCNE, MCNI, CCNA

84 posted on 11/08/2001 8:19:20 PM PST by MarkL
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To: Justa
Yeah, I've heard that of Slackware but imo it remains insufficient as a nework client replacement for current Windows users.

What is it about Slackware that makes it unsuitable for the described situation?

85 posted on 11/09/2001 12:36:23 AM PST by Philip_the_evangelist
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To: MarkL
You're right Mark, Novell does have some great technologies. And many of their supporting products integrate great with NDS.

I think one thing that held them back, is that they waited too long to introduce an ability to do fairly routing administration tasks (creating users, groups, printers) at the server itself.

And I think, marketing and the power of the Microsoft machine had some to do with it too.

Mike
CNE
86 posted on 11/09/2001 6:10:13 AM PST by Justin Thyme
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To: Justa

87 posted on 11/09/2001 6:18:48 AM PST by Mannaggia l'America
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To: ikka
Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

In a word: NO. I'm responsible for recruiting & hiring in the Windows Server/Unix world. If I had $1 for every time a recruiter tried sending me an MCSE that was totally under-qualified, I'd have a few thousand dollars by now.

In the Novell world, we used to call 'em Paper CNE's.

In the Microsoft world, I call 'em Toilet Paper MCSE's because all their certifcation is worth, is wiping one's arse with.

Almost every time I've gotten into a cab in Downtown Chicago I've seen a cabbie reading one of those MCSE for Dummies (or some such book) saying they were going to get a better job.

Yeah, right.

I've been doing Windows NT since it was called LAN MANAGER back in '93. I've been doing Unix (AIX, Solaris & HPUX) since '94. I only recently got my HP certification (tested out of everything, only took 2 advanced courses) and tested all the way out of my MCSE without taking a single course. My hands-on experience FAR OUTWEIGHS what these idiots are learning in books and in so-called "labs."

I wouldn't hire anyone with an MCSE for nothing these days. Unless they have REAL experience, no way.

88 posted on 11/09/2001 6:31:43 AM PST by usconservative
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To: Justin Thyme
I think one thing that held them back, is that they waited too long to introduce an ability to do fairly routing administration tasks (creating users, groups, printers) at the server itself.

That, and crappy marketing. Hate to say it (as a former CNE who let his certification lapse long ago...) but Novell is all but dead. Their market share is dwindling, and about all they can do right now is hang onto what they have. NDS may be a superior directory service, but Microsoft's marketing machine is gonna kill it with the next version of Active Directory. In fact, did you know that Novell's NDS team is down to 7, and many of them jumped ship and went to Microsoft to work on AD? Novell is investing almost $0 in upgrading NDS. Microsoft is spending tens of millions of dollars on A.D. Paul Reiner, one of Novell's chief NDS Architects now works for Microsoft. Reiner authored the authoritative NDS books for Novell.

Remember Novells "Changes" campaign? Boy, that really sucked. I cringed everytime it came on tv.

89 posted on 11/09/2001 6:36:25 AM PST by usconservative
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To: MarkL
Just found this thread, and wanted to through in a couple of comments. I've got a meeting and will be back to see if there's any further discussion or if the thread is playing out.

Mark is exactly right in that tons of experience and real know-how are, unfortunately, 2nd in importance to actually having the certification. At least to the eyes of many employers.

The MCSE has just been upgraded by Microsoft this year, and it is much a much tougher test than what it was previously. It requires more prep to pass, and you do have to actually be proficient in the material in order to pass the exam.

In my opinion, the MCSE from the Windows 2000 track will be much more in demand by employers than the MCSE's from the NT track.

On top of this, you don't have to spend thousands of dollars to prepare for the exams. There is now training available - high quality training - for preparing for the exam for as low as $110. I sell online training, and you can find excellent training to obtain the required skills for literally pennies a day. The author is correct that many companies have (and continue to) run a con job to get folks to pony up thousands of dollars to prepare.

If you want to review quality low cost technical training visit my site:

e-LearningCenter

I'll return to see if there's any discussion and more comments later. I'm late for a meeting.

90 posted on 11/09/2001 7:02:11 AM PST by Texas2step
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To: Brookhaven
Learn SQL and database systems.

You are absolutely right.

We have found a great product for creating front ends to any kind of database backend (MS SQL Server, Oracle, etc.)

Take a look at www.promatrix.com

That product can make you a database guru in no time flat.

91 posted on 11/09/2001 7:27:13 AM PST by Rum Tum Tugger
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To: Justa
I'm mulling over whether to go for the 70-240 by the end of December (when its retired)...

I've pretty much decided not to bother with 70-240. I'm primarily a database developer these days and I don't really do "MCSE work" any more. And I haven't studied much, so I probably wouldn't pass. Maybe I'll do MCDBA next year.

92 posted on 11/09/2001 7:56:03 AM PST by Mr. Jeeves
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There is a difference between being a paper MCSE and a knowledgeable MCSE.

Same as if I only studied a drivers ed manual, took the test and passed. Would I be a good driver necessarily? No
Should that alone lessen the quality or value of a Drivers License? No.

But if I had experience driving either before or while studying to take the exam, then yes, I would be a good driver, yet it would have no bearing on the integrity of the drivers license.

The MCSE is only as good as the person who has it, just like anything. Even *nix users have people who claim to be certified but are only as good as the framed cert hanging on their wall.

93 posted on 11/09/2001 8:07:26 AM PST by WOOHOO
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To: WOOHOO
I'd tend to agree. I'm a self admitted paper MCSE. However, I let my employer know that up front before I was hired, and I didn't apply for jobs that required me to run whole networks on the basis that I read books about them. My only gripe before I found a job was that the entry level job market for this field seemed to be fairly small (and probably due to the reason that people with MCSE's were hired without having much experience, if any, and burned their employers). It is the same old story that applies with getting a loan. You need good credit to get a loan, yet to get good credit you need a loan. And here, you need experience to get a job, yet to get a job you need experience. Oh well, like many have said here before, SQL and other database certs are probably the way to go. I can't imagine businesses surviving without them.
94 posted on 11/09/2001 8:18:35 AM PST by Nate505
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To: Nate505; Moto
May I ask where you guys work? You can use the fr email to reply if you like
95 posted on 11/09/2001 8:22:01 AM PST by WOOHOO
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To: WOOHOO
I work at a pathology labratory. We have a network of one whole NT 4.0 server and around 50 workstations. Yes, not the most technolgical field in the world, but the job was there, I was unemployed, and it seemed like a nice place to get my feet wet. Getting the job was pure luck. I had my MCSE for a month or so, and was having trouble finding a job. In the meantime I took a temporary job doing regular office work, and they placed me here. I made it known that I had an MCSE, and the IT director here needed a new assistant, as her other assistant was quitting in a month. And a couple months later, I was hired outright by my company....we're upgrading our entire system to Windows 2000 in a few months, so that should be a nice change from the regular user problems I deal with, and should give me some good hands on experience.
96 posted on 11/09/2001 10:17:00 AM PST by Nate505
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