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So...my question is...what can I say to her to at least try to make her question the existence of God? Is it just Faith? What would you tell her?
1 posted on 11/04/2001 10:27:45 AM PST by Sungirl
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To: Sungirl
Wheres the proof of evolution?
2 posted on 11/04/2001 10:33:27 AM PST by Bommer
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To: Sungirl
i wish i had an answer. my faith or lack of faith has been really tested. i am very angry at god - so if u find an answer let me know
3 posted on 11/04/2001 10:34:03 AM PST by americanusa
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To: Sungirl
So, if it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, your friend would then believe? Where is the faith in that?

A man raising from the dead was insufficient? Perhaps these folks would consider it if God would come and perform several miracles on demand for them?

Faith goes beyond the capabilities of human thought.

4 posted on 11/04/2001 10:38:11 AM PST by FormerLib
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To: Sungirl
Does she have any children? That's proof enough for me.

In addition, where's the missing link? (that one always gets the scientists) ;-)

5 posted on 11/04/2001 10:38:20 AM PST by BigWaveBetty
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To: Sungirl
Here is the real question: If God exists; who created God? Answer that please. If you say God has always existed; you could say that about the universe as well:-)
6 posted on 11/04/2001 10:38:59 AM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: Sungirl
I will think about this more, but here is one thing that I would tell her: "There are lots of things that we believe in that science simply cannot prove."

Here are a few examples:

1-Science cannot prove that you love someone.

2-Science cannot prove that something is beautiful.

3-Science cannot prove that something is funny.

4-Science cannot prove that you miss someone.

5-Science cannot prove that something is noble or inspirational.

6-Science cannot prove why something makes you sad.

7-Science cannot prove what makes us happy.

There are lots of things that we believe in life that science cannot adequately explain. Clearly we do not say to our loved ones, "I don't love you because love can't be proven."

So it's probably a bad idea to disbelieve in God just because we lack air-tight scientific proof of His existence.

8 posted on 11/04/2001 10:42:34 AM PST by garycooper
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To: Sungirl
Nothing you can say. It takes a desire to know God and cultivate a relationship. Then, comes the proof, the miracles, the joy, the peace. God believes in us, it's we who need to find belief. You can pray that she hears God's still voice, and let her be.

That's my experience.

11 posted on 11/04/2001 10:43:19 AM PST by WarPaint
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To: Sungirl
Hey Sungirl,

That's a challenging question, but appropriate for a Sunday.

There are two books that have been very helpful to me in my own search. While this isn't a specific answer, they might be helpful to you in clarifying your faith and therefore at some point helpful to your friend as well.

They are: "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis, and "Letters From A Skeptic" by Dr. Gregory A Boyd and Edward K. Boyd.

"Letters From A Skeptic" takes a father's (the skeptic) letters to his son (the Christian) and the son's responses and does a neat job of addressing the questions a lot of people have about the existence and relevance of God. It is easy to read.

"Mere Christianity" was a bit tougher for me to get through because Lewis' sentences are somewhat convoluted and take a lot of "thinking through." But I love his writing. It just takes me longer to read him.

Lastly, I haven't found it productive to get into arguments over the existence or relevance of God, so I'd stay away from discussions on evolution. Not because I'm afraid of them, but because they tend to get both participants distracted from the initial point, which is, "Is there a God?", If so, "What is his nature?" and "How does that relate to me?"

Warmest regards,

Endeavor

13 posted on 11/04/2001 10:46:25 AM PST by Endeavor
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To: Sungirl
by definition there can be no proof of god, because then faith would be easy, and our free will would be compromised. however, if your friend were to read c.s. lewis she would find some powerful arguments for belief.

my favorite, drawn fron aquinas and kant, has to do with the fact that we have a sense of right and wrong, of goodness and badness. this is not based on that which is easiest or that which produces specific results, but for some other reason. if there is no god, what would it be? (there are arguments to refute this, but they do not hold up.)

there is also, again from aquinas (and following through thomas jefferson and indeed clarence thomas), the notion of "natural law," as in "we hold these truths to be self-evident." the idea that there are metaphysical laws that are as inviolate as the physical laws of the universe demands a higher order of organization -- strong evidence that all this didn't just happen.

a little more difficult to argue for, and the locus of most religious dispute, is the relatively minor points of just what god's up to. to the extent that we might learn what active role god takes, we encounter a whole lot of background noise, extending from the tinfoil-mitred revelation-thumpers to the latter-day seers of many sorts. but there is something of which we can be certain, and that is that prayer does work. i have seen it time and again, as would your friend were she to watch for awhile. this isn't to say that god is some kind of cosmic santa claus delibering everything for which we ask -- bill buckley famously wrote that "certainly god answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is no," which is i think accurate but a little stark. i much prefer the formulation that alan keyes uses, "sometimes god does the right thing in his way rather than my way."

while i do not take the stock that many do in the bible (there has been way too much opportunity for it to have been corrupted over the millenia), there is one thing in it that i think cannot be doubted: "seek, and ye shall find." if your friend genuinely seeks god, she will not be disappointed.

dep

14 posted on 11/04/2001 10:47:18 AM PST by dep
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To: Sungirl
My mother died recently. I thought I'd be angry at God, but the whole sad experience has strengthened my faith. Because I know I will see her again.

I don't know how I know. I just know it. I don't need any scientist to explain it to me. I know.

15 posted on 11/04/2001 10:47:43 AM PST by Happygal
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To: Sungirl
Maybe Whose Deck is It? will be of help.
16 posted on 11/04/2001 10:48:55 AM PST by WillaJohns
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To: Sungirl
It would depend upon where you start. First, you'd have to find some agreement on what "God" meant, how she is defining God.

There isn't any quick comeback that is effective in answering a question involving deeper meaning; it can however be the topic of an ongoing discussion. That can be good too.

17 posted on 11/04/2001 10:48:58 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: Sungirl
Those are two different things really. God is not an object in the universe, so cannot be proved/disproved using a materialistic standard of proof. Because God is defined as the cause of existence, it is by the nature of existence that he is proven. In other words, God is, because existence is. Of course, this is a matter of definition. If you define God as a "being" in the universe, then you will have problems, i.e., where does this "being" live? Anyway, the traditional view of God is that God is beyond existence. But positive proof is not relevant, because nobody claims to positively define God. We simply know that God is that which or whatever it is that causes existence. Therefore, he is negatively defined, and negatively proved by virtue of existence itself.
Now, about evolution. I don't see what evolution has to do with all of this. If you're talking about physical evidence pointing to a biological process of natural selection, then of course it exists. Evolution is really the best theory we have to explain the process of creation. What I can never understand is how fundamentalists or atheists could believe that the theory of evolution is somehow in conflict with Genesis. It's utter nonsense. Genesis even hints at an evolutionary process by describing that first the form of the planet was created, then plants, then animals, and finally man. That's essentially what evolution says. The people who wrote Genesis did not have access to the scientific tools we have today, and therefore weren't able to make the kind of detailed historical analyses we can make. So, they didn't try. They simply wanted to convey the cause of creation, not its specific mechanical process.
18 posted on 11/04/2001 10:49:31 AM PST by billybudd
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To: Sungirl
Well, for someone who does not want to believe there will always be adequate reasons to reject God. However, if your friend is truly curious, there are a few routes you might want to go down in talking to her about it.

First, there is the evidence from the complexity of even the simplest organisms. Our entire molecular and genetic makeup is in effect information, and it has yet to be proved that there can be an ultimate source of information outside of some intelligent agent. The probability of this seems to indicate intelligent design, which supports (though it cannot irrefutably prove) the existence of a Creator.

Second, there is the evidence from the uniform cross-cultural experiences very different people claim to have when their lives were changed by Christ. This involves a degree of subjectivity and is imperfect also. But I think anyone who has an open mind will find such testimony compelling.

Third, there are the arguments in support of the reliability of the Bible. The smallest, easiest to read volume that defends Christ and Scriptural reliability is Josh McDowell's "More Than a Carpenter," but there are many lengthier volumes than that one.

I wish I had more time to go into detail. But for every flaw she can point to in the evidence for God, it is equally easy to point to the flaws in citing the "proof" of evolution as "proof" there is no God.

19 posted on 11/04/2001 10:49:51 AM PST by dubyajames
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To: Sungirl
I think you should ask yourself why you are posting this to free republic, "a conservative news forum".
20 posted on 11/04/2001 10:51:48 AM PST by tpaine
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To: Sungirl
The truth is those that believe in evolution are brainwashed.

The universe -- based on established scientific laws -- had to be created. The universe could not have created itself, that would violate the first law of thermodynamics. Spontaneous generation -- matter creating itself -- has never been observed.

Nor could the universe have always been here. The second law of thermodynamics indicates the entropy is increasing and the available energy in the universe is decreasing. The universe is going from order to disoder. Eventually, given enough time, everything in the universe will die. All scientific laws indicate that infinite life can not exist in the universe. Thus, the universe could not have always been here or all available energy would be consumed and everything in the universe would dead.

The universe could not have created itself and it could have always been here. That leads one to only one logical conclusion -- the universe had to be created by a supernatural creator. The intelligent design and complexity of the universe also indicates a Creator and not something that has occurred by random chance.

22 posted on 11/04/2001 10:52:57 AM PST by Ol' Sparky
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To: Sungirl
Science requires use of the scientific method: structured knowledge brought about by formulating a question, collecting data about it through observation and experiment, and testing of the hypothetical answer. So far there is niether a test for God nor for Evolution. So if you accept either God or Evolution you do so on the basis of faith, not science.
26 posted on 11/04/2001 11:01:33 AM PST by NetValue
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To: Sungirl
A great source of information including a lot of references:

Book "In the Beginning - Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood"

Creation Science (www.creationscience.com)

You can read the book online, buy a printed copy or CD.

27 posted on 11/04/2001 11:01:39 AM PST by voytex
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To: Sungirl
There is nothing you can say. The existence of God cannot be proved. On the other hand, true faith is not blind. It is based on our experience and reflection. I have faith in my wife that she will do certain things and behave in certain ways. I can't prove she will always do those things. But based on my experience with her, which leads to greater understanding of her, my faith in her is strong. I think this is what Scripture means when it tells us that "faith gives substance to our hopes and convinces us of realities we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1 REB).

Equally important is an open mind and a positive attitude. Again, scripture tells us that his existence can be known to those who, desiring God, look around and realize that "ever since the world began...his invisible attributes have been visible to the eye of reason, in the things he has made" (Romans 1:20 REB)

29 posted on 11/04/2001 11:04:20 AM PST by TexasKamaAina
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To: Sungirl
I'm an athiest myself, but right now I'm finding some of the most interesting arguments for "something more" to be coming from the "near-death experiences" that have been documented. I found this site to be worth reading.
31 posted on 11/04/2001 11:09:24 AM PST by Billy_bob_bob
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