Justice Department won't let (FBI) agent testify (in Nichol's state trial)

Indianapolis Star ^ | November 3, 2001 | JAMES PATTERSON

[OKCSubmariner]

While Terry Nichols, already convicted on federal charges in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, returned to court Monday to face the state's case against him, the government was squirming to squelch evidence that Nichols and Timothy McVeigh did not act by themselves.

[roughrider]

Ojeda had said that 302 interview reports he had written up on German National Andreas Strassmeyer involvement with McVeigh were never allowed to reach the defense.

This is a very serious violation of the law. I think it was the CIA-linked female prosecutor of McVeigh who made the "Elvis" remark concerning McVeigh and Elohim City. I wonder what Special Agent (He REALLY deserves the title) Ojeda thought about that flip slogan mouthed by the chief federal prosecutor.

[OKCSubmariner]

Thank you and God Bless you for your courage, your service to the nation and to Oklahoma. Thank you for helping MRs Davis and all of on the FreeRepublic who care like you about preserving the Constitution, our freedoms. Our forefathers would be proud of your service and sacrifices.

God in Heaven says well done, thou good and faithful servant. You and the others like you on FR will be like Caleb and Aaron who for being FAITHFUL were protected by God during the 40 years in the wilderness while the rest died.

[EarlyBird]

Ashcroft and Mueller are trying to save their own butts and they honestly believe they are serving America's interests by protecting the institutions of the FBI and DOJ with coverups at all costs. They do not think America could survive if she learned the truth about the corruption in the FBI and DOJ. Ashcroft and Mueller have said they are cleaning up the FBI and DOJ but I doubt they are trying very hard since they are spending most of their time covering up the previous coverups so they can buy time (they say?)to clean up the FBI and DOJ in the future.

Pardon me, Submariner, since I have followed most every one of your posts on this subject, but I don't believe this for a second. IF -- and it's a big IF -- the Bush administration is covering up the cover-ups, there has to be a logical reason why. Just because the American people couldn't survive the relevation that the Clinton FBI was corrupt?

That's a farce.

Political considerations alone would rule this out, much less the moral and ethical considerations which I believe the Bush administration heeds.

Remember, Janet Reno is mounting a gubernatorial challenge to President Bush's brother in Florida. Don't you think that if Reno's DOJ covered up aspects of OKC that the Bushes wouldn't capitalize on it for political purposes? What theory do you have that trumps the political motivations that George and Jeb must have to beat Reno in FLA?

Do you really believe that the Bush administration believes that Americans could not handle hearing about scandal in the previous administration?

To tell you the truth, I'm beginning to think that this John Doe #2 or 3 or 4 or whatever, theory is BS. I just can't conceive of a reason, especially after 9-11, that the Bush administration would continue to cover this up.

Please enlighten me.

[mississippi red-neck]

Usally when someone or some government deparmnet tries to cover something up, it is because they SCREWED UP BIGTIME. I beleive that one of the main things they are trying to conceal, is the fact that they had prior warning, that the act was going to take place. I think that they might have not been too sure of their source, but the people on the inside of the FBI were nervous enough that that decided not to go to be in the building that day.

Then the nightmare came true and all those innocent civilans that were not privy to the same inside information died. Now they don't want to face the American public with the fact that they gambled with the lives of the public and lost, while they saved their own people. Can you imagine the outrage if this is true? Like I said, when people try to keep something hid, 90% of the time it is a case of CYA.

[rwfromkansas]

Can the Justice Department control a state trial? This is messed up and wrong if so.

[OKCSubmariner]

For reply #25:

Yes the Feds can control a state trial (like they controlled the OKC COunty Grand Jury in the OKC bombing case-they manipulated the testimony of FBI agent John Hersely by only allowing him to give controlled answers and in many cases to refuse giving answers!).This extremely unfair and immoral.

It must be overturned or we in America will contine to get steam rolled by police state Fed officials who want world government and who do not want to be held accountable for their screw ups and corruption. Freedom in America will die if this continues. American's citizens are being persecuted by unscrupulous Fed officials

See replies #15 and #18

[EarlyBird]

This is pure, unadulterated, bullsh!t. What Michigan militia group do you belong to, anyway?

Like I said in previous posts (which you have not yet responded to, by the way), I followed every one of your posts about the MidEastern John Doe. You sounded logical and your theories sounded reasonable.

Now, you are sounding like a fanatic. Until you can give me a convincing argument as to why the Bushes would allow Reno to get away with this, when they are running a political campaign against her in FLA, I will disregard your posts.

[OKCSubmariner]

Do you doubt this satement?:

"Ashcroft and Mueller have said they are cleaning up the FBI and DOJ but I doubt they are trying very hard since they are spending most of their time covering up the previous coverups so they can buy time (they say?)to clean up the FBI and DOJ in the future."

Five months ago Ashcroft was hand delivered in person hard evidence in the OKC bombing case of other domestic John DOes (Arizona and Kansas)I positively identitfied with key witnesses and color photos and other evidence. The evidence was explained to Aschcroft and he deliberately chose to do nothing . Read BlueDogDemo's reply for a good description of the ME link. He is a former OKC police officer and a Fed military official. He has more standing than me, believe him for sure. See reply #16 from BlueDog.

Have you not read the recent articles on FR that quote Assistant Defense Secretary Wolfowitz as saying that McVeigh was an Iraqi agent who had Iraqi intell phone nos in his possession? This was confirmed in a world Net daily article , "Dead Men Tell No Lies posted on the FR." I doubt you have yet had time to read all that I have written on the topic of the OKC bombing within the past 15 months I have authored over 30 articles on the OKC bombing case (many in 200 and 2001) Everything I wrote has proven to be correct including Ashcroft's coverups.

Please contact the others in the above reply this and they will provide you all the info and articles you can possibly read to verify what I have written. They are great archivists and know the case extremely well. I hope they can help you. I am very busy right now trying to keep up with all this myself and do not have the time to dig up everything to enlighten you even further.

Also, I was actually being kind to Mueller and ASchcroft in my remarks by saying they are tring to protect institutions-I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. Actually IMO They are both stupid and corrupt for not carrying out the laws of the land regardless of WHY. I do not have to prove or guess why. All I have to prove is what did in fact happen in the OKC case. I will leave the why up to others. The Why question can be a trap that can be used by them to get themsevles out of trouble and avoid the facts of what happened. You do not have to prove motive(why) to prove a crime.

[EarlyBird]

I believe a key piece here is that it takes ready and available funds to transform a blown up building into a monument within such a short period of time. In my opinion, that is where the truth in all this is likely to be. Who put the wheels in motion with respect to the transformation of that crime scene into a monument? Follow that particular money trail and see where it leads.

Mayor Guilliani? I think he is wanting to turn the World Trade Towers remains into a monument. Is he trying to cover something up too?

[aruanan]

The attitude of the government is "Better to let one man die--he's going to die anyway--looking like one of only two involved than to have evidence surface that will a. call into question our handling of the affair and b. put us into a position of actually having to track down somebody who could lead us to a really, really big fish that we'd rather not deal with--ANthrax! ANthrax!", with that cough way of saying "Assh-le! Assh-le!"

[EarlyBird]

You do not have to prove motive(why) to prove a crime.

You are really starting to go off the reservation now.

[EarlyBird]

You do not have to prove motive(why) to prove a crime.

Generally, if you cannot provide a motive, juries have a difficult time convicting.

That's why I'm still waiting for a motive that George and Jeb would give Janet a pass on this one.

[rightofrush]

...and we're supposed to buy the government's stories on TWA 800, Waco, and the Twin Towers?

Why did the tower that was hit off center, with the fuel fed fire ball outside the tower, colapse first? The implosion looked like the planned dropping of obsolete structures by explosive experts.

[OKCSubmariner]

I am from Oklahoma City and I belong to no militias nor have I ever attended any of their meetings anywhere at anytime. I am a conservative Republican and vote regularly.

I am a former nuclear submarine officer and served directly under Adm Rickover. I have investigated the OKC bombing case almost every day for over six and a half years. I have met with and discussed at length the details of the OKC case with the legal counsels of the Senate Intell and Judiciary committes as well as the former Pentagon terrorism advisor Jesse CLear (advisor at the time of the OKC bombing). I know OKC police officers, FBI agents and military officers knoweldgeable about the case including FBI agent Dan Vogel (my wife taught his son in school and she worked with Vogel wife for years)

A clue for you is that Bush replaced few if any significant Fed bureaucrats and officials that were Clintonistas. Tell me why that is? Do You at least agree that Clinton and the Clintonistas coveredup many scandals including Waco and OKC and Chinagate, and Filegate, and Whitewater and Monica gate and , and , .....?If you agree with this then maybe you can understand why things are not being cleaned up under Bush by the Clintonitas that are still there that created the messes and coverups anyway.

I have a question for you. Tell me why Bush has still left so many bad high level Clinton coverup bureucrats in the Bush administration?

LSJohn and Judge Parker, would you like to enlighten EarlyBird.

[OKCSubmariner]

You wrote : "Generally, if you cannot provide a motive, juries have a difficult time convicting."

What you wrote is generally NOT TRUE nor should it be if you have an intelligent, well functioning jury. If your evidence is not strong enough to convict without having a motive then you do not deserve to get a conviction. There are many times when guilty parties cannot even tell you themselves their motive or "why" they did a crime.

[Wissa]

Just because you can't pinpoint thier motives, doesn't do away with all of the evidence leading to the conclusion that the justice department is doing the same thing here that they did in the Randy Weaver case. Lying, withholding evidence. Why are they doing it? I don't know. I'd just be speculating. But I don't need to get proof of what the motives are to acknowledge that SOMETHING definitely smells in the way the feds have been handling this.

[rightofrush]

Do you, as the most well-informed Freeper on this subject, have any sensible theories that would explain WHY the Bush justice administration would want to continue this charade?

This and the recent attempts to seal the records of previous presidents is really starting to make me wonder JUST WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE! Anyone else getting a bit curious?

Looks like you're on the way to waking up to what those of us in the anti-Bushie crowd have felt since GW let the Clinton's slide, abandoned the Klamouth Basin farmers, and kept all Cinton's EOs, expansion of NAFTA, and continued support of the UN financial claims.

Face it. The Murrah building bombing and the Twin Towers disaster have this in common: The goal of public aceptance of the erosion of their civil rights.

[OKCSubmariner]

For reply #33;

I never even brought up Jeb Bush. Why are you bringing him in? A diversion?

I wrote that Ashcroft and Mueller were not doing their jobs. You suddenly shifted the discussion from that to somehow trying to claim incorrectly that I wrote (in your words)"George and Jeb" are giving Reno a pass. Do you think George and Jeb are giving Reno a pass? I do not know myself. Why would you say that or try to incorrectly say that I did when I did not?

[rightofrush]

Ashcroft and Mueller are trying to save their own butts and they honestly believe they are serving America's interests by protecting the institutions of the FBI and DOJ with coverups at all costs.

It is my dearest hope that your child-like faith in our leaders is justified.