Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: RickyJ
Don't the Baptist calim the "once saved, always saved" garbage?

Some -- though far from all -- Baptists hold to one of the five points of Calvinism -- the last one which Calvin called "perserverance of the saints." There are a few Baptist churches -very, very few -- which are 'hard-shell' Calvinists and hold to all five ('total depravity', 'unconditional election', 'limited atonement', irresistible grace' and 'perserverance').

Essentially, Luther and Calvin, in rebutting the abuses of the Roman Catholic church (RCC)(in purporting to appropriate to itself the power to 'dispense' the 'means of grace' -- "buy it here at a good price"), held that man played no role whatever in his salvation or damnation. They taught that God had decided it all before the foundation of the world -- some specific individuals went to Heaven and most went to Hell. (If it were true that man could play no part in finding salvation, it would make some sense that he could likewise play no role in subsequently rebelling either.)

Unfortunately, while hard-shell Calvinism is a neat little intellectual construct (and it certainly does defeat the RCC error), it is a vicious doctrine (sentencing hapless infants to Hell) which bears no resemblance to the central message of the Gospel as revealed in the New Testament, i.e. that Christ offers salvation to 'whosoever will' respond to His offer of it.

The vast, vast majority of Baptist groups believe in the offer of salvation revealed in the NT, but some believe that man loses his will once he accepts Christ and thereafter is a Calvinist automaton who cannot rebel. In their view, this avoids some of the obvious non-biblical viciousness of the first four points of Calvinism and it avoids the question of why a person would ever want to leave the fold of Christ -- once having known Him -- for sin.

However, because of its inherent inconsistency (why would God give men the opportunity to choose Christ and Life Eternal and then take it away at the point of salvation?), this view has little historical traction and is losing out in evangelical circles to the full Biblical view of free will.

So, the answer to your question is very few do continue to hold to the last point of Calvinism.

If you want to know Christ, forget manmade constructs such as Calvinism -- and forget organizations which claim they can save you -- and read the New Testament for yourself. Start with one of Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) and meet the Master for yourself.

57 posted on 10/31/2001 1:42:55 PM PST by winstonchurchill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies ]


To: winstonchurchill
They taught that God had decided it all before the foundation of the world -- some specific individuals went to Heaven and most went to Hell.

For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will-- (Eph. 1:4,5)

Hmmmmm...the meaning of the above two sentences sound a lot alike.... Could it be that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer, and the other original Reformers believed what the Bible taught here? By your definition, all these men would qualify as "hard shell" Calvinists--even though the famous 5 points were not fully elucidated until 100 years later in the Cannons of Dort.

In comparison to this, when a Christian is baptized is a minor point.

65 posted on 10/31/2001 2:15:28 PM PST by AnalogReigns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies ]

To: winstonchurchill
However, because of its inherent inconsistency (why would God give men the opportunity to choose Christ and Life Eternal and then take it away at the point of salvation?), this view has little historical traction and is losing out in evangelical circles to the full Biblical view of free will.

Excuse me, what are you talking about?

God doesn't TAKE away anyone's salvation, people lose it all on their own. Yes, all humans including Christians will always sin in the flesh, but their is a difference between sinning unwillingly and willingly.

And maybe you should take your own advice and read the NT.


LUKE 8:10-15
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


Now would you say their is little historical evidence of losing salvation once you have obtained it?

Guess what? Even after you die and are accepted in heaven YOU can still LOSE your salvation. I know what the bible says, and don't need a formal "expert" to tell me what it means.


I John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
71 posted on 10/31/2001 2:36:28 PM PST by RickyJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies ]

To: winstonchurchill
I am a Calvinist. Not all infants go to hell. Those who were predestined go to heaven. Calvinism is the most logical theological system consistent with the totality of Scripture. While it may be something that is not very pleasing to the ears to hear, that does not mean it isn't the truth.
94 posted on 10/31/2001 3:46:09 PM PST by rwfromkansas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies ]

To: winstonchurchill
If you want to know Christ, forget manmade constructs such as Calvinism -- and forget organizations which claim they can save you -- and read the New Testament for yourself. Start with one of Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) and meet the Master for yourself.

<flame-retardant jumpsuit>
I treat the five points of Calvinism as an attempt to outline, as much as is possible, the mechanism behind salvation. Obviously it is a flawed understanding, because, as you said, it is a manmade construct, but in my mind it is the conception most consistent with God's omniscience and omnipotence. However, because no one but God knows who the elect are, the five points cannot be looked to as guidance for how to live our lives (as you said, only the Scripture can provide that), and anyone who justifies action on predestination or "I'm of the elect" is wrong. So, while I agree with your point that it is bad for Calvinism to be used as a crutch for man's designs, I don't think that it is a "vicious" ideology.

97 posted on 10/31/2001 3:49:33 PM PST by Romestamo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson