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To: AnalogReigns
I have a question for R.C. Sproul and every Protestant in the universe. The answer to this question demonstrates the fatal flaw in Protestant notions about justification and demonstrates just how dreadfully wrong Martin Luther was.

Sproul writes (emphasis mine):

Justification refers to a legal action by God by which he declares a person just in his sight. The Protestant view is often described as "forensic justification," meaning that justification is a "legal declaration" made by God.

However, when evangelicals speak of forensic justification, the phrase is used as a kind of theological shorthand for sola fide, and what is tacit is the assumption that God declares people to be just who in themselves are not just.

The question is this:

Where in Scripture does God EVER declare anything which is not either already true or is simultaneously accomplished by the very act of God making that declaration?

In Genesis, do you read "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and so light was forensically declared to exist, although everything was still pitch-dark."?

No.

When God told the children of Israel to eat the Passover lamb, because that night he would execute judgement upon the gods of Egypt, did he really mean that judgement would be forensically declared to have been executed on the gods of Egypt, while in fact nothing had really been done about the situation?

No.

When God told David, "I will build you a house," -- meaning an everlasting dynasty through the kingship of the Messiah -- did he really mean, "I will forensically declare that I have built you an everlasting dynasty. Nevertheless, no such thing will actually exist: it is a legal fiction."?

No.

When Jesus said, on the cross, "It is finished," does that really mean, "I have forensically declared this to be finished, although clearly it really isn't."?

No.

Sproul's position -- which accurately reflects Luther's -- amounts to saying that God forensically declares a falsehood. Sproul practically admits it in the passage I quote above!

The God I worship is truth. His word is more real than any reality I know. To posit some sort of separation between God's word in declaring a man righteous and God's gracious act in making that man righteous is heresy bordering on blasphemy.

And to that I can respond only: Let God be true and every man -- every man, be he Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Sproul, or John Paul II -- be a liar.

269 posted on 11/03/2001 6:40:13 PM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
Where in Scripture does God EVER declare anything which is not either already true or is simultaneously accomplished by the very act of God making that declaration?

This is a good question, and it requires a good answer--even though I think it is a very big (general) answer, to a very big (general) question.

I'm not a Bible scholar, so I'm not going to insert proof texts, but I think one could find dozens there...along with knowledge that God's people understood God declaring something true now...when to them it really was not yet, as part of daily existence.

First of all we have to ask how does God see and know what is true. God is eternal, and sees things eternally. Jesus' blood paid the price of sin for everyone who believes...that's an orthodox statement, something that can be accepted by Roman, Protestant, and Eastern Christians alike. Meaning 2000 years ago at the cross--everyone's sins, past (the OT saints) present (those fearful and then unfaithful disciples), and everyone who's believed and followed Christ since--had his sin completely washed away at the cross. So before we ever were born...or sinned at all...it was paid for. Strange, and hard to ponder, I agree, but this is what Holy Scripture teaches, and what orthodox Christians have always taught. I'm giving this fundamental example to show the timelessness of God...His work although effective in our time, is really beyond our time too.

Now why all this philosophical gobblygook, to try and show in Scripture "where... does God EVER declare anything which is not either already true or is simultaneously accomplished by the very act of God making that declaration?"

Very simple:
The Old Testament sacrificial system.
Think about it, orthodox theology has always held (until some way out, admittedly Protestant, dispensationalists denied it) that the Bible teaches Jesus' sacrifice was what the lambs, bulls, doves, and goats sacrificed for sin, and peace offerings, had always looked forward to...but not accomplished, EVEN THOUGH GOD CLEARLY DECLARED FORGIVENESS THROUGH THOSE O.T. ANIMAL SACRIFICES.

Those repeated sacrifices...every day...and on some days by the hundreds...were not enough, in and of themselves, to cleanse from sin. If Jesus had not come, and completed the Law--including the sacrifice, in His own blood, those O.T. saints never could have seen Heaven, as their faith, in the animal sacrifices, was really looking for God's provision--which was, though they did not know it, in Christ Jesus' life and work on the cross.

So logically, every time in the O.T. when God forgave them...through the sacrifice, offered after genuine repentance, God was declaring something as true, which was NOT already true, and not made true by His declaration. From the O.T. time standpoint, forgiveness was not a fact yet...YET is the big word. But also it was true they had been forgiven, as God would in the future surely do what He had promised--from Gen. 3:15 (speaking to the devil)"it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel," onwards.

So the whole of the O.T. sacrifices can be cited as places in Scripture where God declared something true, which wasn't yet...(but would be, based on His integrity) nor was it accomplished by fiat at His word.

In the same way every Christian is seen by God as having the perfection of Christ (as we will, someday--and in a sense as God sees it NOW in His time) even though, from our finite in-time perspective, we are all far from perfect and complete. God loves us, just as He loves Jesus, and how in character, united in Him, we will someday be.

Jesus paid it all.

276 posted on 11/06/2001 3:19:22 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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