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1 posted on 10/30/2001 8:56:40 AM PST by sheltonmac
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To: ouroboros; Snuffington; Greg4TCP; Loopy; cva66snipe; Askel5; ppaul; kidd; JohnHuang2; sauropod...
Bump
2 posted on 10/30/2001 8:57:23 AM PST by sheltonmac
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To: sheltonmac; snopercod
Which is why the liberals, "liberal media," Clintons, Clintonistas, and unfortunately too many Democrats are more accurately, nationalizing socialists: their focus or reason d'etre is rivalry, the pitting of people against each other, most typically by employing fear and state excesses, out of which adversity or anarchy, such politicos locate themselves to be seen, to appear to be, the solutions ( ... to the very problems they created).

They are government supremacists, nationalists.

3 posted on 10/30/2001 9:15:44 AM PST by First_Salute
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To: sheltonmac
BTTT
4 posted on 10/30/2001 9:17:44 AM PST by Marianne
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To: sheltonmac
We're not really trying to force-feed our ideals hither and yon; but we do insist that, in the interest of liberty and pursuit of prosperity, other nations leave other nations (including us) alone, in peace, to pursue our own goals. We do this because when we don't, tyrants arise and will always come back to haunt us.
6 posted on 10/30/2001 9:21:24 AM PST by Migraine
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To: sheltonmac; snopercod
"...and he is quick to compromise with an enemy."

Nope.

And my apologies, about my previous reply; it was meant in the context of where I had first, in my error of reading too fast, thought the article was headed.

Very sorry.

7 posted on 10/30/2001 9:21:34 AM PST by First_Salute
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To: Agrarian; Mercuria; diotima; sheltonmac; Either/Or; Askel5; mrustow; UnBlinkingEye...
OUTSTANDING COLUMN BUMP. Sorry if many of you are getting double bumped, I'm sure Shelton's list and mine have a lot of overlap.
8 posted on 10/30/2001 9:25:56 AM PST by ouroboros
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To: sheltonmac
what the nationalist really loves is an abstraction — “national greatness,” or something like that.

BTT
9 posted on 10/30/2001 9:40:59 AM PST by sendtoscott
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To: sheltonmac; *Paleo_list
Ties in with a thread I posted last night, Notes on Nationalism. I think I actually was born in the greatest country on Earth, America, but I still think I'm a patriot in the sense he means because if I had been born Danish I would love Denmark, military might or no. But then, it's doubtful that "greatest" necessarily has anything to do with the military. I'd say the greatest country is the one with the most freedom (which, I suppose, is a very American thing to say). In that case, America is still at or near the top(it's a little more subjective than who can kill more people and break more stuff). He's right that confusion between nationalism and patriotism are easy, but he passes one of the reasons over. An American patriot must love America partly because of abstract ideals, because those ideals form an important part of our particular identity and history.
10 posted on 10/30/2001 9:59:38 AM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: sheltonmac
Any country that refuses to Americanize is "anti-American" - or a "rogue nation."

This is fine in theory, but written as it is, in the middle of the War on Terror becomes demagoguery. That is because what is currently termed "rogue nation" has a precise connotation: a nation that would assist terrorists is a rogue nation; a nation could be as unamerican as a fig pie, if it cooperates with us, it is a legitimate nation.

12 posted on 10/30/2001 10:30:14 AM PST by annalex
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To: sheltonmac
Good article.
19 posted on 10/30/2001 6:47:22 PM PST by Aerial
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To: sheltonmac
SM, I've never read better. Even from Sobran. IT'S GOOD!!! And WELL reasoned. I am a patriot. Peace and love, George.
21 posted on 10/30/2001 8:09:28 PM PST by George Frm Br00klyn Park
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To: sheltonmac
This is a season of patriotism, but also of something that is easily mistaken for patriotism; namely, nationalism. The difference is vital.

It's nationalism if we start it, it's patriotism if the other guys start it.

26 posted on 10/31/2001 3:39:03 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: sheltonmac
Sobran bump!

Hilaire Belloc in his book 'Survivals and New Arrivals' writes (and warns) a bit on Nationalism:

"But the essence of Nationalism, in its present form as a menace to religion, lies in this: that the nation is made an end in itself. When that mood appears, there is present, in the strictly technical sense of the word, Heresy; there is present false doctrine, and all the dangers of spreading and ramifying evil which spring from false doctrine as from one poisonous seed."

"Let us take a few tests and judge by them the quality of the thing."

"Go to a public park on two successive Sundays. On the first, stand upon a chair and declaim at length against the discipline of religion. Ridicule the doctrine of the Trinity, the Incarnation, the right of a Christian society to enforce the practice of Christian ritual. Nothing will happen to you."

"On the second Sunday get up on a chair and declaim at equal length and with equal zeal against the country and its conduct in the late war. Praise enthusiastically some more specially unpopular foreigners-enemies for choice-laugh at the heroism of the troops, call them cowards and go on to denounce with vigor the obedience rendered to their officers and soldiers and sailors. A great number of things will happen to you. Even after the police have rescued you from the hands of the mob, the State will proceed to deal with you in a fashion which will enlighten you for good upon the limits of toleration."

written in 1929. Imagine what would happen if one were to 'take the test' that Belloc mentions above today.

38 posted on 10/31/2001 7:02:05 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: sheltonmac
There is some reality to the distinction, but it's easily manipulated by people to make the points they want to make. For such people, patriotism is whatever they think good, nationalism whatever is bad.

A lot of those who support foreign crusades for "Democracy" or "Freedom" aren't even nationalists, but internationalists. I doubt nationalism or patriotism even enters into their thinking except as something to be overcome. I suppose the neo-cons fit Sobran's or Orwell's label "nationalism", but even there, it's questionable whether nationalism is really at the center of their thinking. Perhaps it is, and defining "nationalism" pejoratively can convince people of that, but I have my doubts.

As Orwell, points out, a lot of the people he calls nationalists are those who derive their self esteem from belonging to some big unit. You don't have to be a nationalist to do that. In our system, some of the most ferocious nationalists in Orwell's or Sobran's sense aren't "nationalists" in Hamilton or Marshall's or Madison's or Monroe's sense -- promoters and supporters of the American federation or nation-state. Rather they choose some other group -- ethnic, religious, regional or political to exalt above all else.

The other side of the coin, though, is that if we vacate all big units like nations and cultures of value to concentrate on the naked individual, important things that go into the make up of the individual are lost. I think Sobran's "patriots" understand this. The problem is that some of people who would call themselves "patriots" in his scheme because they reject nationalism, really don't have this understanding. They define themselves as "patriots" rather than "nationalists" simply because they aren't nationalists. Sometimes it may be precisely the nationalist who brings home to people what nationality or homeland may mean. I can understand the desire to keep the fervent nationalist with his wounded pride or aggrandizing ambition at bay, but I wonder if people aren't also losing that quieter love of country. Or at least I was wondering until last month.

44 posted on 10/31/2001 2:05:40 PM PST by x
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To: sheltonmac
Great article, thanks for the bump!
45 posted on 11/01/2001 11:12:17 PM PST by ashrad
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