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The Towers Have Fallen - But We Missed the Message
timessquarechurch.org ^ | 9/16/01

Posted on 10/29/2001 7:54:47 AM PST by truthandlife

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To: OWK
Thank you! I have been going nuts trying to find it, everyone was looking at me like I was insane when I talked about it...at least now I have a starting point. What a strange coincidence that your mother has it.......
121 posted on 10/29/2001 10:53:53 AM PST by ravingnutter
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To: Marysecretary
You can choose to or choose not to, but if this country does not repent, we're in for it--big time! God will either bless America or take the blessing He's already given us away. It's YOUR choice, America!

Double Ditto's. I agree with all that you said in your post.

122 posted on 10/29/2001 10:54:16 AM PST by DreamWeaver
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To: ravingnutter
Thank you! I have been going nuts trying to find it, everyone was looking at me like I was insane when I talked about it...at least now I have a starting point. What a strange coincidence that your mother has it.......

If it helps you any, she has it as a reproduction oil painting. She bought it in a Bible Bookstore in Baltimore, in the late 70's or early 80's.

123 posted on 10/29/2001 10:56:53 AM PST by OWK
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To: Will
OK. If I'm wrong, then you tell me: how do you define "deviancy"? What do you want done about it?

I keep hearing over and over that our "tolerance" of sin "caused" the attack--or, excuse me, God "permitted" it on account of these sins, or tolerance, or whatever. (To me, the difference between saying "God caused it" and "God permitted it" is mere hairsplitting). What do you want done about this?

Since 9/11 I have been trying--in vain--to get a straight answer to these questions. The more you evade, the more suspicious I get. I will consider your suggestions of what we should do, if you ever get around to telling me what they are.
124 posted on 10/29/2001 11:06:07 AM PST by alpowolf
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To: truthandlife
Thank you, truthandlife, for posting this important message !!!

It seems to me that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson were trying to say something similar to this David Wilkerson message . . . but they chickened out when people started bashing them !!! So be it . . . they'll need to live with their own cowardice !!!

I, for one, am in complete agreement with David Wilkerson's wise assessment of America's enormous problems concerning our ever failing faith . . . and our continuing refusal to adhere to the Word of Almighty God !!!

Hopefully I will not need it, but all the same my double-edged sword is drawn and ready for application as Our Heavenly Father may direct !!! May God Blss America !!!

125 posted on 10/29/2001 11:06:15 AM PST by GeekDejure
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To: Marysecretary
You are so right! Reading some of the responses here makes me realize just how often people don't want to know the truth or are possibly afraid to step out on faith and accept something (salvation) that is offered for free. It doesn't matter if we believe it or not, there will be a day when each one of us stands before a loving God to be judged. (He loved us so much that He allowed His son to be killed) so that we (anyone who wants to accept His free gift of salvation)would have the chance to spend eternity with Him in heaven rather than in hell. And please, before I get nailed with, "how could a loving God allow His own son to be killed"...that's how much He loves us. And last, don't knock it until you've tried it! When you sincerely invite Christ into your heart, you will never be the same again.
126 posted on 10/29/2001 11:16:09 AM PST by shellylet
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To: GeekDejure; Will
Hopefully I will not need it, but all the same my double-edged sword is drawn and ready for application as Our Heavenly Father may direct !!!

At least GeekDejure is honest about it. Sounds like use of force to me.

Since I am not a Christian and I am a Playboy subscriber, no doubt I'm one of the ones you have in mind. Just be careful with that sword...I will not go gently.
127 posted on 10/29/2001 11:16:24 AM PST by alpowolf
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To: OWK
I just now found the portrait at a Christian book store but it has been discontinued. I remembered it as an older painting due to the age of the cars. At least I can print out a copy of it, so people won't think I have totally lost my marbles, LOL! Thanks again!
128 posted on 10/29/2001 11:23:11 AM PST by ravingnutter
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To: ravingnutter
Yup... that's the one.

(memories of my younger days)

129 posted on 10/29/2001 11:25:30 AM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
So then NO human murders are really evil, because God knows the outcome, and he's in control at all times.

Just because God knows the outcome doesn't make them any less evil. What lies in someone's heart that commits these acts is what makes them evil. The motive behind murder is typically selfishness. The person thinks of themselves rather than any consequences their actions might have. If they do think of the consequences they then relish the pain and anguish of others. This is blatant evil.

A soldier, on the other hand, commits murder in self-defense of his country. He may not want to kill someone, but for the sake of his country and his principles he will do so. That is self-sacrifice. Giving of yourself is never evil.

And before you go there, Atta and his ilk are not considered soldiers in my book. They killed innocent people unnecessarily, supposedly to go meet their 17 virgins...very selfish.....

my 2 cents...

130 posted on 10/29/2001 11:27:39 AM PST by dubyagee
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To: truthandlife
What is born will die,
What has been gathered will be dispersed,
What has been accumulated will be exhausted,
What has been built up will collapse,
And what has been high will be brought low.
-- The Buddha
131 posted on 10/29/2001 11:28:46 AM PST by ThreeOfSeven
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To: alpowolf
The more you evade, the more suspicious I get.

I never evaded the first thing. First you attribute to me things I never said (AND with your last post have just done the same thing again). Then you say you are "frightened" - a call to the other Laeodicians to come to your aid. Now you are saying I have "evaded" something, giving you reason to be "suspicious". WOW! What a ccomplete basket case you are. Making up and atributing quotes never written. Claiming frightfulness over these, then turning to requiring me to define something (again, an infinitismal part of my comments) and that you are suspicious. What may be your self worship has left you no access to your intellect, has it? Sad, really...

First, "deviance" is not mine to define in this case. Similar to the Supreme Court definition of pornography of "knowing it when I see it", you know it also on some deep hidden level that you have blocked from yourself. But even more than your opinion, is what God has spoken to on the subject. I know that this likely "frightens" you even more because this will not let you assign your judgement (as part of what seems to be your stand for self worship). I never assigned my views of "deviancy", why must you insist that I did?

I never said the first thing about G-d "causing" or "permitting" the attack. Where do you come up with this stuff? Again, your self worship and all empowering judgement will not let you even discuss the subject without going into these emotional crutches. Find a way to get beyond these things and then you may find the possibility of intellectual discourse. You certainly don't have it now. With all due respect, get a clue - then maybe we can have a discussion without resorting to your obstructionist, over-emotional modus operandi. (hint: don't begin attributing things that were never said, try rational intellect rather emotional grasping no matter what you are defending)

132 posted on 10/29/2001 11:33:30 AM PST by Will
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To: dubyagee
A soldier, on the other hand, commits murder in self-defense of his country.

A soldier does not commit murder.... nor does anyone employing force in defense of rights.

133 posted on 10/29/2001 11:33:41 AM PST by OWK
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To: Will
You sure use one helluva lotta words, to say a whole lotta nothing.
134 posted on 10/29/2001 11:37:09 AM PST by OWK
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To: shellylet
Too many people have lived too long believing that their own judgements are their god. It is painful to even begin to see that, much less confront it.

Some of the defense mechanisms involved are real barriers to any honest discourse. They will lie, falsely attribute things said, use intense sarcasm, or whatever it takes to avoid themselves in any meaningful way.

135 posted on 10/29/2001 11:38:24 AM PST by Will
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To: OWK
Howl on, OWK...
136 posted on 10/29/2001 11:39:43 AM PST by Will
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To: dubyagee
Just because God knows the outcome doesn't make them any less evil. What lies in someone's heart that commits these acts is what makes them evil.

And this of course is my point. The person responsible for the crime... the actor... is responsible for the evil. Many in this thread, wish to make God an actor in these events. They (not I) suggest that he would ordinarily have protected us from such evil, but now chooses NOT to act.

That makes God an actor in these events.

My point is not that God is evil. My point is that those whose understanding of the nature of a loving God is so limited and so corrupted by their own human failings that they make God an actor upon the stage of this horrific evil.... they.... they are the ones who cast God as evil.

137 posted on 10/29/2001 11:41:45 AM PST by OWK
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To: alpowolf
Since I am not a Christian and I am a Playboy subscriber, no doubt I'm one of the ones you have in mind. Just be careful with that sword...I will not go gently.

I care not whether you are a Christian . . . that's your problem . . . and I care not whether you read Playboy . . . that's your choice . . . but I do indeed care about my own personal safety as well as the safety of my family !!!

Hence, if you were to physically attack me and mine, you can rest assured that my double-edged sword would fully and vigorously be defensively applied accordingly !!! Got it ???

138 posted on 10/29/2001 11:42:23 AM PST by GeekDejure
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To: Will
hint: don't begin attributing things that were never said

You need to take your own advice. This is what I said: I keep hearing over and over that our "tolerance" of sin "caused" the attack. In other words, I said that I have heard many people say this. Try reading some of the other posts!

I am trying to address the theme of the original post. All I'm asking is for someone--it doesn't have to be you--to explain what it is that they want to do. Why is this so hard?
139 posted on 10/29/2001 11:42:58 AM PST by alpowolf
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To: OWK
You presume to know the heart of God. Your logic is simplistic, but the norm for most of this country, i.e. "How could a loving God stand by and let bad things happen?"

It's a question without an answer, except to say "God knows all, is all, and is responsible for all." Some see this as fanciful. Others view it as frightening autocracy. And still others believe it's the only answer which enables us to sleep at night and send our children out the door.

Whether we agree on things or not, God is in control, now and forever.

140 posted on 10/29/2001 11:45:10 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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