Posted on 10/27/2001 9:33:56 AM PDT by freedomnews
H.R.3162
Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001
Kevin Curry : No. What you are saying is, "Let a million die just as long as I don't suffer even the possibility of personal inconvenience at the hands of the government."
Just how many lives of other people would you be willing to sacrifice to terrorists to preserve your own personal comfort anyway?
kempo: Henrietta, little buddy, I'm 6'4" and 250lb. I shoot expert with a Glock 22C 4 times a year. I'm a firearms instructor. I've never been on the loosing end of a fight and I've had to defend myself more times than I can remember. So I can take care of myself too.
MHGinTN :Yeah, right! I wonder how many in the WTC though that too? You are just very fortunate that there are people in this nation that ignore your stupidity and protect you anyway!
OK, now we know that everyone here can protect themselves. Refer to my post 300 for my opinion of the central problem our government faced here. I think 9/11 could have been avoided had we acted sooner (years). Yes, there might well have been other incidents along the way just as bad. But if there is an issue here, it is one of our governments failure to address the problem of terrorism. This wasn't the first time American's died. Our government waited until we were struck by an attack, in our homeland, of such a magnitude that it could not be ignored. Can any of you point out the specifics in this bill that you think would have made a difference in our governments pre 9/11 actions that might have prevented this tragedy? Can anyone point out how our government is being prevented from reacting now?
We should first tighten up our borders. For heavens sake, we're letting in Syrians to take flight training!The PC junk would have to go. We should stop bending over backwards to not offend followers of Islam. They have announced "Death to America"; I think they have proven they mean it. We should cancel visas of students and all foreign nationals here from hostile nations and even fence-sitting nations such as Saudi Arabia (how many of the hijackers were Saudis??). We should deport every illegal alien we could track down regardless of their nationality. Would this completely stop terrorism? Probably not, but I'd bet it would go a long way disrupting existing cells and we would likely gain some valuable intelligence along the way.
Tell me how much is freedom is you aren't safe and secure? How much freedom do you have if your family, neighbors, or fellow citizens are dead because the government didn't act in a time of public danger.
There is no guarantee of safety and security. And, I submit that it is impossible to achieve any level of safety and security without first having freedom. The 9-11 horror was a result of gov't not enforcing existing laws and massive intelligence failure.
Where will be your voice and life in the solution? Or is it only okay for the government to act if it doesn't effect you whatsoever.
I'd like to keep this great country; it's not a personal thing. Is it only politically correct to gripe at the government when they act and again when they don't act once it touches your doorstep?
I don't want a nanny state. I don't expect the government to protect me personally. And frankly, this terrorism has touched my doorstep; it touched America.
We should first tighten up our borders. For heavens sake, we're letting in Syrians to take flight training!The PC junk would have to go. We should stop bending over backwards to not offend followers of Islam. They have announced "Death to America"; I think they have proven they mean it. We should cancel visas of students and all foreign nationals here from hostile nations and even fence-sitting nations such as Saudi Arabia (how many of the hijackers were Saudis??). We should deport every illegal alien we could track down regardless of their nationality. Would this completely stop terrorism? Probably not, but I'd bet it would go a long way disrupting existing cells and we would likely gain some valuable intelligence along the way.
Tell me how much is freedom is you aren't safe and secure? How much freedom do you have if your family, neighbors, or fellow citizens are dead because the government didn't act in a time of public danger.
There is no guarantee of safety and security. And, I submit that it is impossible to achieve any level of safety and security without first having freedom. The 9-11 horror was a result of gov't not enforcing existing laws and a massive intelligence failure.
Where will be your voice and life in the solution? Or is it only okay for the government to act if it doesn't effect you whatsoever.
I'd like to keep this great country; it's not a personal thing.
Is it only politically correct to gripe at the government when they act and again when they don't act once it touches your doorstep?
I don't want a nanny state. I don't expect the government to protect me personally. This terrorism has touched all of our doorsteps, they killed some 5000+ of our fellow citizens and would like to kill us all.
Instead of initiating some common sense measures under existing law, our gov't has passed a new law that I believe is unconstutional.
The Congress has done nothing
you could ask them why ! the U.N
We have been invaded, and in the worst way possible. They came and lived in our houses, attended our schools, and got drunk at our local hangouts. Then SOME of the invading force hijacked four jets and killed my neighbors and yours. The fire from the Twin Towers is still burning, and all of the people connected to 9/11 who are still in this country are still mailing out cute little love notes that just love us to death.
This bill is Politically correct to a fatal flaw, and Constitutionally INCORRECT to what could be a fatal flaw in the wrong hands. What do you suppose the Clintons would have done with a bill like this? (Not that they weren't bad enough already.)
Weren't you a wee bit surprised when they began using the RICO Law against anti-abortion demonstrators? My sister surely was after spending time in jail.
There are a lot of common sense clauses in this bill, but there are some that should make your hair stand on end. There are too many payoffs for our favorite critters, lawyers, insurance companies, and bankers.
For instance:
`Sec. 2712. Civil actions against the United States
`(a) IN GENERAL- Any person who is aggrieved by any willful violation of this chapter or of chapter 119 of this title or of sections 106(a), 305(a), or 405(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) may commence an action in United States District Court against the United States to recover money damages. In any such action, if a person who is aggrieved successfully establishes such a violation of this chapter or of chapter 119 of this title or of the above specific provisions of title 50, the Court may assess as damages--
`(1) actual damages, but not less than $10,000, whichever amount is greater; and
`(2) litigation costs, reasonably incurred.
`(b) PROCEDURES- (1) Any action against the United States under this section may be commenced only after a claim is presented to the appropriate department or agency under the procedures of the Federal Tort Claims Act, as set forth in title 28, United States Code.
`(2) Any action against the United States under this section shall be forever barred unless it is presented in writing to the appropriate Federal agency within 2 years after such claim accrues or unless action is begun within 6 months after the date of mailing, by certified or registered mail, of notice of final denial of the claim by the agency to which it was presented. The claim shall accrue on the date upon which the claimant first has a reasonable opportunity to discover the violation.'.
`(3) Any action under this section shall be tried to the court without a jury.
`(4) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the procedures set forth in section 106(f), 305(g), or 405(f) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) shall be the exclusive means by which materials governed by those sections may be reviewed.
`(5) An amount equal to any award against the United States under this section shall be reimbursed by the department or agency concerned to the fund described in section 1304 of title 31, United States Code, out of any appropriation, fund, or other account (excluding any part of such appropriation, fund, or account that is available for the enforcement of any Federal law) that is available for the operating expenses of the department or agency concerned.
`(c) ADMINISTRATIVE DISCIPLINE- If a court or appropriate department or agency determines that the United States or any of its departments or agencies has violated any provision of this chapter, and the court or appropriate department or agency finds that the circumstances surrounding the violation raise serious questions about whether or not an officer or employee of the United States acted willfully or intentionally with respect to the possible violation, the department or agency shall, upon receipt of a true and correct copy of the decision and findings of the court or appropriate department or agency promptly initiate a proceeding to determine whether disciplinary action against the officer or employee is warranted. If the head of the department or agency involved determines that disciplinary action is not warranted, he or she shall notify the Inspector General with jurisdiction over the department or agency concerned and shall provide the Inspector General with the reasons for such determination.
`(d) EXCLUSIVE REMEDY- Any action against the United States under this subsection shall be the exclusive remedy against the United States for any claims within the purview of this section. `(e) STAY OF PROCEEDINGS- (1) Upon the motion of the United States, the court shall stay any action commenced under this section if the court determines that civil discovery will adversely affect the ability of the Government to conduct a related investigation or the prosecution of a related criminal case. Such a stay shall toll the limitations periods of paragraph (2) of subsection (b).
`(2) In this subsection, the terms `related criminal case' and `related investigation' mean an actual prosecution or investigation in progress at the time at which the request for the stay or any subsequent motion to lift the stay is made. In determining whether an investigation or a criminal case is related to an action commenced under this section, the court shall consider the degree of similarity between the parties, witnesses, facts, and circumstances involved in the 2 proceedings, without requiring that any one or more factors be identical.
`(3) In requesting a stay under paragraph (1), the Government may, in appropriate cases, submit evidence ex parte in order to avoid disclosing any matter that may adversely affect a related investigation or a related criminal case. If the Government makes such an ex parte submission, the plaintiff shall be given an opportunity to make a submission to the court, not ex parte, and the court may, in its discretion, request further information from either party.'.
(2) The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 121 is amended to read as follows:
`2712. Civil action against the United States.'.
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So, even if there is no reason for the government to investigate you, and even if you prove it, (which won't be easy. It never is to disprove a negative;) the government can claim that it would interfere with some other investigtion and you could quite easily be dead before your name is ever cleared, if indeed, it ever is. That's ONE.
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