Locked doors stopped rooftop rescue in WTC towers

Sydney Morning Herald ^ | 10/24/01

[Howlin]

Looking at the picture above, I'd agree.

[Andrew Byler]

The people who were trapped above this fire were trapped," spokesman Frank Gribbon said.

"Perhaps their only recourse might have been to get to the roof, but it might not have been likely that they would make it, either.

"Up until now, we've never really had more than one floor burning in a fully-occupied high-rise building.

"Did we ever plan for something of this magnitude? No."

Gosh, do I ever smell a class action lawsuit brewing!

What a bunch of lame-ass excuses. "We've never had more than one floor burning". Well, golly gee! You didn't look very far at what's happened in other cities like Philadelphia or Los Angeles, with multi-story infernos.

Another howler: "Perhaps their only recourse might have been to get to the roof, but it might not have been likely that they would make it, either."

Well, I'll take "not very likely to survive" over "certainly dead" any day!

You have to wonder what these folks were thinking. Assume, for a moment, the fire had been controlled or burnt itself out, and the towers not collapsed. At least six floors of the North Tower had been demolished by the plane's impact, including all the emergency staircases (why the folks up there couldn't get out). How were they proposing to get people down? They certainly couldn't have them all come out into the middle of the unsupported floors liable to collapse. Obviously, the only way out was "up" for those above the fire.

This lame-brains comments, and the WSJ article only reinforce my conviction about a total lack of planning among NYC Emergency Services for what might happen in any high rise in the city with a big fire.

[Andrew Byler]

NYPD has 4 rescue choppers that can take 10 people at a time. More were coming from Long Island.

[Andrew Byler]

If the doors remain unlocked people would go to the roof to kill themselves or throw things off of the roof or similar stunts. When this happens, Port Authority gets sued and is forced to keep the doors locked. Doors locked, no one gets out in the event of a fire. Such is the world in which we live.

NYC Code requires all buildings to have unlocked doors to allow emergency egress to the roof. There is no undue rash of suicides off of any of NYC's many towers.

The PA was more concerned about the telecom atennae being damaged.

However, if this was a real concern, each floor's fire marshall (NYC Code requires each floor have a designated fire marshall), could have been given the ability to unlock the door.

[alisasny]

Seems to me that access to the roof would have been horrible. The caous of the situation would have had people jumping from there too. In addition the observation deck was highly fortified to prevent suicide....Say 1000 people were there and one little helicopter....i see huge panic being filmed and it would not have been pleasent to watch the rescue fail.

[coloradan]

But afterwards the Port Authority used its exemption from local fire rules to insist that the towers' roofs were kept locked to prevent people committing suicide or launching stunts from the top.

Aren't those rules formulated for our "safety" and our "protection?" If so, then why exempt yourself from having to follow them as well? Live by the self-exemption, die by the self-exemption ... except that it killed a lot of innocents as well.

[Andrew Byler]

Could you have imagined TWO suicide bombers flying jumbo jets into the buildings, let alone one? I couldn't have.

The very week prior to 9/11, Les Robertson, the Professional Structural Engineer in responsible charge of the design of the WTC Towers said to an anti-terrorism conference regarding his building design "I designed it to withstand a 707 flying into it."

Maybe you didn't consider it, but I'm sure the designers and insurers did. Planes flying over NYC have hit other buildings and even each other before. Obviously this is something to be prepared for, even if only as an accidental incident.

Finally, Ramzi Youssef, mastermind of WTC attack #1 in 1993 was caught with plans to comandeer a plane and fly it into the CIA HQ in Langley. Tom Clancy had written about a fictitious terrorist plot to fly a plane into the Capitol. The use of planes as weapons is as old as the Kamimaze attacks.

[Andrew Byler]

According to the 911 dispatch transcripts the helocoptor pilots said that a rooftop landing was not possible due to the high heat and the massive amounts of rising smoke. They tried but couldn't do it - they circled the towers in an attempt to land but the horrible conditions prevented it. In the transcripts I read no pilot said anything about beign able to land. I read the transcripts in the NY Daily News in September after the attacks.

That was Tower 2, which actually had a helipad. Tower 1 had no helipad. In 1993 the Police cleared a makeshift space by knocking down the telecom attenae on part of the roof and then taking people off the building. It could have been done again, but the doors were locked, and the NYPD Helicopter crew had no way of getting in.

[habs4ever]

I am curious why grown ups would listen to a security guard, anyway? They can leave the building,come back in a few hours if everything is ok, and if not, they have saved their lives.Too bad too many let an authority figure overide their common sense or instinct.

[Andrew Byler]

You need a picture from above, not from below. Tower 1 had a smoke free area on the roof.

[Andrew Byler]

Seems to me that access to the roof would have been horrible. The caous of the situation would have had people jumping from there too. In addition the observation deck was highly fortified to prevent suicide....Say 1000 people

Are we talking about the same buildings? You could go up on the roof deck of 2 WTC, jump over the low railings of the walkway fence, and run about 15 yards to the edge of the building if you wanted to jump. NOBODY EVER DID IT. THE EXCUSE IS A BUNCH OF CRAP.

All NYC Skyscrapers have unlocked roof doors. How many people jump off in a year? ZERO!

were there and one little helicopter....i see huge panic being filmed and it would not have been pleasent to watch the rescue fail.

Of course, it was so much more pleasant to watch them all die in the collapse? I really doubt there would have been a panic. People would've been thrilled to be getting off of there.

[NYCVirago]

I am curious why grown ups would listen to a security guard, anyway? They can leave the building,come back in a few hours if everything is ok, and if not, they have saved their lives.Too bad too many let an authority figure overide their common sense or instinct.

Perhaps they thought that the security guard or the public address announcer actually knew something more about the situation than they did. (Big mistake, in retrospect!)

I told this story in another thread -- a co-worker's wife worked at the WTC. One of her co-workers got out of the building, then went back into the building (never to return, unfortunately) to get a few things from her office! Her fiance, who also worked at the company, is kicking himself from not stopping her from going into the building. It just hit me now, in retyping this story, that it is surprising that they let people go back into the building.

[537 Votes]

Could you have imagined TWO suicide bombers flying jumbo jets into the buildings, let alone one? I couldn't have.

Seeing that a military bomber once crashed into the Empire State Building, just down the street, I don't see why this was so unimaginable.

The architect of the WTC used to boast that he designed the towers to take the impact of a 707. I've read that the containment domes over nuclear power reactors are designed to take the impact of a 747. It's a common enough disaster scenario.

If you couldn't imagine it, then maybe it's a good thing we don't hire you to develop building emergency evacuation procedures. The sad thing, of course, is that the people we did hire for the WTC proved to be equally unimaginative.

I don't think they should be punished, but at the same time, their performance evaluation would not lead me to hire them over other qualified candidates if a similar position were to be offered at another building site.

If that sounds 'cruel' -- well, it would be even more 'cruel' to the more competent person who was in competition for the same job. And it would be even more cruel to the ten thousand people working in that building, whose lives would then be at greater risk due to our 'compassionate' hiring practices.

'Failing to reward incompetency' is not a bad thing. It's the basis for the free market system, and it saves lives.

[vannrox]

Does anyone remember the 1974 movie called "The Towering Inferno". the similarities are amazing!

Go HERE to visit a site with tons of pictures that look just like the World Trade Center! Another good link is HERE.

[RetiredArmy]

Nope, no, nadda. Heard this angle right after the bombing. It was stated that choppers could not have got onto the roof because of the intense heat rising up and the smoke and fire. Would not have been able to get anyone off the roof if they had been there. Someone has been watching too many Steve McQueen and OJ movies about burning buildings!

[pepsionice]

Lets all go back to the Vegas hotel fire where the Air Force literally pulled people off the hotel roof with rescue helicopters. Ten helos could have been used and pulled at least 300 people off each roof within a 30 min period without any trouble.

[The Old Hoosier]

But honestly, Eggs, who could have known that the other tower would be hit minutes later? If you were some kind of authority figure on that day, then the last thing you needed was people rushing out of tower two while the FDNY was trying to run a rescue operation below for tower one.

[habs4ever]

It was irresponsible on the building security to make that kind of guarantee in a situation as fluid as it was, when there were reports of fire coming out of the elevator shaft and elevators plunging to the basement in a death spiral.Glass falling down in the courtyard and marble cracking in the foyers tells any alert person that the whole area is dangerous.Unfortunately, those that returned didn't have enough sense to observe that, or confidence to ignore the advice of securiy guards.

[Fred]

Good thing those doors on THE ROOF were locked. Would not want anyone sneaking in the building...

[R2]

I've often wondered since 9-11 how many people working in the WTC, but escaped, had the forsight to disappear since then in an attempt at Life Insurance Fraud???

I guess I'm always looking around the corners...