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To: spycatcher
And had you been born in a squat mud-brick hut in the hills of Afghanistan, you would now be attempting to convince me that the Christians all worship a false God, and that Allah is the way.

You were born here, so you believe what you believe. They were born there, so they believe what they believe. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement a defender of Allah.

And so it goes.

11 posted on 10/23/2001 9:23:38 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK
If you had been born there, you would now be mocking atheism.

You might have been raised by religious parents and converted, but there are people who convert from atheism to Christianity. That's how it works in a country with religious liberty. If you had been born there, you would have been indoctrinated into Islam and exposed to nothing else. Granted: what people believe is largely determined by their parents' beliefs. Someone still has to be right. Christians are the ones.

60 posted on 10/23/2001 11:26:42 AM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: OWK

You were born here, so you believe what you believe. They were born there, so they believe what they believe. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement a defender of Allah.

This is an argument that completely sidesteps the very issue that you are raising. It becomes apparent that you're doing this, when this is restated with a different set of facts.

You were born here, so you believe that the sky is blue. They were born there, so they believe that the sky is red. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement of a defender of "the sky is red."

If we were to assert that -- we would be laughed out of the place, because one would maintain that the sky is blue -- because it is a "truth" that exists outside of one's own "belief". In other words, my "belief" doesn't make the sky blue -- it is only my agreement or disagreement with it. The truth of the matter remains the same, regardless of my belief. So, this is -- in essence -- what you are trying to say, that my "belief" makes something true. Or, put another way, that there is no such thing as "truth" which exists outside of whatever I wish to believe.

So, if we were to agree that if I were born there and they were born here -- we would still be faced with the truth of the matter -- i.e., that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the one true God and all others are false gods.

It doesn't matter where one lives or what one believes. Truth stands on its own, because truth exists outside of the believer. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob exists outside of whether they believe, you believe, I believe or even that we "exist" in the first place -- at all.

106 posted on 10/23/2001 1:32:25 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: OWK
You were born here, so you believe what you believe. They were born there, so they believe what they believe. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement a defender of Allah. And so it goes.

Boy, that's really deep. O great one, could you teach me to reason like that?

Does that mean that since you were born in the dirt, you worship the ground? Is that the way it works?

Grow up, pup. Jettison the sophomore sociology.

I believe in Jesus Christ because He is the Son of God. [BTW, He wasn't 'born here.'] You may 'believe' in what you will -- or nothing at all -- and place your bets.

108 posted on 10/23/2001 1:34:49 PM PDT by winstonchurchill
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To: OWK
"And had you been born in a squat mud-brick hut in the hills of Afghanistan, you would now be attempting to convince me that the Christians all worship a false God, and that Allah is the way."

"You were born here, so you believe what you believe. They were born there, so they believe what they believe. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement a defender of Allah."

Well said, which points to the dangers inherent in a nation of illiterates. Who was it that said ..."and the Truth shall set you free"? And so it goes.

113 posted on 10/23/2001 1:40:28 PM PDT by semaj
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To: OWK
Yep, who are we to judge? One set of beliefs is just as good as another. Terrorists are people, too. Sometimes good people do bad things. It's all a matter of style. All morality is class morality. No belief is worth fighting for. If the Germans landed at Dover we should welcome them as tourists. Better Red than Dead. I swear an oath never again to fight for King and Country.

In just a moment we will turn on the showers, there is no need to be afraid.
191 posted on 10/24/2001 3:58:00 AM PDT by wretchard
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To: OWK
Yes, so it goes. We are influenced by our cultures.

Christians believe Jesus is sweet, the light, the truth and the way, the Prince of Peace, the heart of mercy, full of grace, the Christ.

Muhammad was a warrior messenger of Allah, a man, a prophet, judging and threatening and killing others.

Jesus's only violent act was to turn the tables of the thieves in the Temple. (Can a Christian scholar tell why Jesus chose to do this in this manner?)

Christians value all life whereas outside the confines of their religion, culture and law, Muslims don't.

Islam means "submission", "obedience" to everyone, else they are infidels and must be punished, apparently by physical death or mutilation.

Christianity encourages obedience to God, obedience to His commandments, a belief in Christ and awareness of one's own sinfulness, else one loses one's soul. But not necessarily must one lose their physical life on Earth.

As a scientific scholar, I can live and prosper among Christians, not so under Islam. The Islamic culture I think I would find stifling. And since I have the opportunity under Christianity to improve life, to make it more healthy and prosperous, then necessarily it must be attractive to everyone, including Muslims which brings me to butt heads with Islamic fundamentalists; therein lies a root of war. To justify their insanity, they call attention to trashy elements of Western culture, but they murder their own without what we consider due process and justice.

So yes people do reflect their cultural upbringing but Western principles will prevail unless these terrorist elements of Muslim culture are free to act out their insanity with biological and nuclear weapons.

213 posted on 10/24/2001 6:05:31 AM PDT by Hostage
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To: OWK
Except, you could judge these two cultures by how they have prospered.

Except, we do live in an age where both scriptures are available to all who want to read, and choose.

I'm reading the bible, and am not very interested, I admit, what one of the distant tribes wrote hundreds of years after the good news of man's salvation.

295 posted on 10/26/2001 12:19:05 AM PDT by withteeth
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To: OWK
You were born here, so you believe what you believe. They were born there, so they believe what they believe. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement a defender of Allah.

Then you yourself are making this particular claim merely because you were born where you were were born.

365 posted on 11/08/2003 1:13:40 PM PST by nosofar
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To: OWK
By the grace of God I was not born in the place you described and by the same grace I not believe what they believe. What you say may be true but it only confirms the goodness of the Lord in dealing with a sinner like me. My birth and birthplace and my faith are all a gift from him who saves sinners.
369 posted on 11/08/2003 2:05:22 PM PST by strongbow
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To: OWK
Language has been an impediment ever since the tower of Babylon.. To the simple minded, that it, at whose mercy we have been and ever will be..
373 posted on 11/08/2003 7:59:14 PM PST by a_Turk (Threatened by shadows at night, and exposed in the light....)
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To: OWK
And had you been born in a squat mud-brick hut in the hills of Afghanistan, you would now be attempting to convince me that the Christians all worship a false God, and that Allah is the way.

You were born here, so you believe what you believe. They were born there, so they believe what they believe. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement a defender of Allah.

So where were you born?

Seems you have defeated your own argument.

376 posted on 11/08/2003 8:26:50 PM PST by Jorge
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To: OWK
Not true. God reaches people in all places. There ARE Christians over there.
499 posted on 11/12/2003 7:30:51 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: OWK
#11
[ You were born here, so you believe what you believe. They were born there, so they believe what they believe. But had your places of birth been reversed, you'd be every bit as vehement a defender of Allah. ]

A bit of a parochial attitude but true, kinda sorta, in a great sweeping generality sort of way...

510 posted on 11/12/2003 9:18:20 AM PST by hosepipe
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To: OWK
... And so it goes.

Nice to drop in and see you are still fighting the good fight.

...on and on.

534 posted on 12/06/2003 6:43:43 PM PST by Lysander (My army can kill your army)
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To: OWK
And had you been born in a squat mud-brick hut in the hills of Afghanistan, you would now be attempting to convince me that the Christians all worship a false God, and that Allah is the way.

Be careful, man. You may have to account for what you've written here someday. Are you really willing to bet all you have and are, that the Christian and Muslim points of view are equivalent?

543 posted on 01/26/2004 2:15:42 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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