Posted on 10/23/2001 8:39:39 AM PDT by spycatcher
Pre-Islamic Arabia's religion was one of superstition. Belief in jinns (genies), curse casting, magic stones, totems was the norm - and it was against this background that Allah arose. Although the Quran is claimed to be a heavenly writing with no earthly source, evidence of these very sorts of cultural influence is found in such places as Suras 55, 72, 113 and 114.
Animism, the belief that spirits inhabit rocks, trees and other elements was also very commonplace. Some of these stones were venerated and used as a focal point for the worship of a particular tribal god. No surprise, Muhammad's family had just such a stone for their own tribe - a black stone, in fact, that they kept at the Kabah (where the tribal idols were set up). The pagan rites of bowing toward Mecca, making a pilgrimage to the Kabah, running around it seven times, kissing it, then running to the river to throw stones at the devil all found there way into Islamic practice.
The final piece of the puzzle was in found in the religion of the Sabeans, an astral religion that worshipped the moon god and planned their religious rites around the lunar calendar. One such rite was fasting from crescent moon to crescent moon, a practice which would also be adopted by Muhammad.
If these things were not present before Muhammad received them from Allah (who himself is the moon god of Muhammad's tribe), why did Muhammad not have to explain what those words meant in the Quran? How would people have known who Allah was? ( or: what a jinn was? what the Kabah was? what the word Islam meant? etc.). Even the word "Islam" which many believe to mean "submission" was not an original word. In Arabic it was a secular term that denoted the strength and bravery of a desert warrior (a definition that accurately reflects the war-like tribes that founded Islam with bloodshed).
The Moon God
"Allah" is from the compound Arabic word "al-ilah" or in english "the god". Allah was known before Muhammad's time without a doubt. His name has been found in pre-islamic writings and other archeological finds. At the Kabah in Mecca over 350 gods were worshipped, but it was built especially for the chief deity - the moon god. Allah was the personal title of the moon god. Allah was married to the sun goddess. They produced three daughters, whose worship Muhammad would later make the mistake of condoning. The crescent moon symbol of Arabia came from this god.
Muhammad's family revered this particular god, and it is this idol that Muhammad declared to be the only true god. So, Allah - far from being the revealed God of the Bible as Muhammad would have us believe - is nothing more than an amplified pagan idol. Muhammad did not re-make the pagan god, he simply removed the lower deities from the rites of worship. That is why he never had to explain who Allah was. By definition, an idol converted in the 7th century into a new god cannot be the sama God revealed thousands of years earlier to Biblical prophets!
Of course not.
History shows that truth is more often than not a minority held position.
First of all - you made much of the idea that the word "day" actually means "period of time" - certainly a common interpretation. My question - if God did not create the earth and the things on it in literal days, why did He require us to remember it as such?
Exodus 20:8-11, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Very specifically, God links the literal work week followed by the literal sabbath day with the days of creation and rest. Why would He do that if the truth were so far removed from a literal reading?
Second comment - here's a quote from your post -
Read Jacob's prophesy. Ephraim (a company of nations - the U.K.) and Manasseh (a great nation - America) inherited Jacob/Israel's name. America and the U.K. are the Israel mentioned in all the end-time prophesies. Why wouldn't America be in the prophesies, America is the most Christian nation on earth. It would be illogical for it not to be mentioned.
Whoa, do I hear replacement theology? You referenced Romans 1 in your post. Ever read chapter 11? Why would Paul be warning the Christians Romans against being boastful about other Christians? Why would he be cautioning them that God was not done with Christians?
Besides that, the biblical text as a whole flies in the face of your interpretation. In Jeremiah, God tells Israel that the sun won't rise and the moon won't shine if He forgets His promises to Israel - quite an amazing promise. Are you saying that He was reassuring modern America/UK through the ACTUAL nation of Israel? He didn't really mean it for those to whom Jeremiah was preaching but rather for a future, distant nation that didn't yet exist? Sounds a bit dishonest and cruel to me. Historical Israel certainly thought those promises were meant for her. They comforted Israel in times of captivity and throughout the diaspora - "next year in Jerusalem" became the common greeting because they knew that someday, they WOULD be in Jerusalem, because God promised it in scripture.
And what about the regathering prophecies? Are you suggesting that Israel as it exists today is not at all a fulfillment of those prophecies? Should we at some point expect the US/UK nations to be scattered throughout the world with the expectation of some future regathering?
I'm sure I could give you any number of additional examples. But first, I would love for you to reference a bit more on this rather than just Jacob's prophecy. Please provide more substance, because your claim is a very serious one that impacts the interpretation of a great deal of biblical text, considering that fully 2/3 of the book is prophetic.
One more quick comment on what I excerpted - why wouldn't America be mentioned? Well, first of all, maybe at the time of fulfillment - ie during the end times - the demise of America has already taken place so that we are much less of a world focus. Besides, think of America on the grand scale - we have only been on the scene for a few SECONDS comparatively, and the UK for a few minutes longer. With that perspective, can we be we that arrogant to believe we must matter more than anyone/anything/anywhere else?
Second of all, speaking of logic - I would imagine that you would agree that it is completely illogical that Israel gets the astounding amount of worldwide attention that she does. Someone sneezes in Israel and it makes the AP. The UN has based a large majority of their resolutions upon condemning Israel. The Muslim world is absolutely obsessed with that tiny scrap of land.
Going back even further than that - the Jews have always, VERY illogically, been the focus of blind hatred, persecution, destruction, ethnic cleansing, and obliteration, more than any other genetic line or religious group of people in the history of the world. Relentlessly they have been targeted, and still are. If America is the real intent behind biblical prophecy, why do you think Satan has tried so hard to destroy the Jews?
??
If anything, this makes my point even stronger.
My point was that people born in Muslim indoctrinating countries are overwhelmingly Muslim, and are convinced of the "truth" of Islam.
And had you been born in one of those countries, you'd likely be attempting now, to convince me of a "truth" other than the one you hold dear now.
Simple statement of fact.
Very true. A very small minority of Christians believe that Christ will save all, eventually. I believe this as well. A lot of former Christians reject Christianity due to the belief in eternal punishment. I don't blame them really, but what they believe in this regard is not true.
1 Timothy 4:9-11, 1 John 2:2
A bit of a parochial attitude but true, kinda sorta, in a great sweeping generality sort of way...
By definition God is unlimited, infinite, immortal, omniscient and omnipresent. There can only be one such Being. If one argues that his god is superior to all other gods, then he is arguing that his god has limitations and therefore is not the ultimate God. That is, in my opinion, a form of unintended idolatry. That, or he is assuming that men from different times and places than his own are not seeking almighty God, but rather some lower god. This is an arrogant assumption. The other possiblity is that God is not fair or merciful, and does not make Himself available to all.
I think what I meant was it's wrong to debate just for the sake of debating. Some people just get contrary, they don't care what you say, they'll automatically disagree.
Even though I insinctively believed in God since I was a kid, when I got to be a teenager, I could be considered an agnostic, or even an atheist. But then I went to college and saw mathematical proof (don't ask me to find it for you, it was in Calc II, I think...:^)...) that there are more dimensions than the 4 dimensions that we can comprehend. If there are more than 4 dimemsions, then anything is possble. Then the internet came around and I went online in '95. At first the internet was pretty sparsely populated information-wise but as more and more information and theories became available, I was able to weed out the stuff that didn't hold up to scrutiny. A couple years later I saw Arnold Murray on TV and saw that he was talking of the same stuff I was able to discern from the internet (even though he hates the internet). Of course he has studied the bible deeply for 50 years and so his views are much more refined than what I had discerned in the short time scanning here and there, and so his teachings helped a lot, because he knows the meanings of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words in the original manusrcipts. I agree with Murray on most things, about like with Rush. There are a lot of things I discuss that Murray doesn't discuss, so just because you see me post something doesn't mean I got it from him.
I have been leaning towards this interpretation myself, since I find it hard to reconcile all races began with Adam, and for that matter, all but Noah and his family being destroyed in the flood, defacto making his family the top of the totem pole of all mankind.
Yeah, the bible says "two of every flesh", humans are definitely flesh. But actually I believe that that when the bible says 8 were saved that it is just speaking of the family of Adam. God may have arranged for survivors from every area of the earth.
You need to understand that there was an age before this one that we all lived in (not in the flesh, there is no reincarnation) but that we can't remember. Satan rebelled and 1/3 of the souls created aligned themselves with Satan to take over God's throne. So when you see that God tells the Israelites to go across the countryside and whoop butt in the Old Testament, the people taking the butt-whooping probably did something to deserve it in the first age. It makes sense why the family of Adam would be God's chosen also. If you were God and you were going to run your 12 billion or so souls through this test in this age, you would do the ones that stuck with you a favor and let them be amongst each other and you would favor them most of the time and let them have their way as long as they were behaving.
Yeah, If OWK can say what he says about YHVH, then surely there are those that can speculate about Allah.
So the little babies whose throats were slit by Joshua, had it coming...?
They deserved it?
The bible is written in parables, meant for those with understanding to understand. If it was written in a lawyerly fashion, then this age would not have been a good test to see who would stand with Him. Anyone who wants to be an atheist can easily be an atheist, claiming this, that, or the other is wrong. Those who want to stand with him will do so, meanwhile teaching himself to rightly divide and interpret parables thereby gaining wisdom. It's written in a genius manner. The Word itself separates those who study to show themselves approved, and those who only want to criticize or not believe.
Exodus 20:8-11, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Very specifically, God links the literal work week followed by the literal sabbath day with the days of creation and rest. Why would He do that if the truth were so far removed from a literal reading?
I don't see it as far-removed. Remember a day with God is as a thousand years (meaning a very long time) to man. God created the earth in 6 of His days and rested. We worked six of ours and rested (before the crucifixion).
Second comment - here's a quote from your post - Read Jacob's prophesy. Ephraim (a company of nations - the U.K.) and Manasseh (a great nation - America) inherited Jacob/Israel's name. America and the U.K. are the Israel mentioned in all the end-time prophesies. Why wouldn't America be in the prophesies, America is the most Christian nation on earth. It would be illogical for it not to be mentioned. Whoa, do I hear replacement theology?
What is replacement theology? Regardless of whatever organization you're trying to pin on me what I say is true. The United States, Britain, Israel, English Canada, Australia, and pockets in Northwestern Europe are prophetic Israel.
You referenced Romans 1 in your post. Ever read chapter 11? Why would Paul be warning the Christians Romans against being boastful about other Christians? Why would he be cautioning them that God was not done with Christians?
There are certain nations where Christians have congregated more than others. That is prophetic Israel. All who believe are of the seed of Abraham and God loves Christians in Russia and China as much as he loves Christians in America. When I say "prophetic Israel", I'm speaking of Israel in the time before the second advent, where the battle of Hamongog takes place.
Besides that, the biblical text as a whole flies in the face of your interpretation. In Jeremiah, God tells Israel that the sun won't rise and the moon won't shine if He forgets His promises to Israel - quite an amazing promise. Are you saying that He was reassuring modern America/UK through the ACTUAL nation of Israel?
We are the descendants of the people of Israel. Judah was only 1 tribe, the rest went north and west after the Assyrian captivity.
He didn't really mean it for those to whom Jeremiah was preaching but rather for a future, distant nation that didn't yet exist?
We are the same people. We are descended from Isaac and Abraham. Judah is our brother but he is only 1 tribe out of 12.
Sounds a bit dishonest and cruel to me. Historical Israel certainly thought those promises were meant for her.
They are. They are meant for us too. We are Judah's brother.
They comforted Israel in times of captivity and throughout the diaspora - "next year in Jerusalem" became the common greeting because they knew that someday, they WOULD be in Jerusalem, because God promised it in scripture.
Yes, the sticks will reunite someday. We are the other end of the stick.
And what about the regathering prophecies? Are you suggesting that Israel as it exists today is not at all a fulfillment of those prophecies?
Not at all. Judah is 1 of twelve tribes and they are receiving God's promises just as we are.
Should we at some point expect the US/UK nations to be scattered throughout the world with the expectation of some future regathering?
We are scattered throughout the world. The only thing left is the regathering.
I'm sure I could give you any number of additional examples. But first, I would love for you to reference a bit more on this rather than just Jacob's prophecy. Please provide more substance, because your claim is a very serious one that impacts the interpretation of a great deal of biblical text, considering that fully 2/3 of the book is prophetic.
James, for instance taught to the tribes "scattered abroad". That means that they had made it to whever he was teaching by that time. They were on their way west for sure. They came all the way to NW Europe, the UK, and of course America.
One more quick comment on what I excerpted - why wouldn't America be mentioned? Well, first of all, maybe at the time of fulfillment - ie during the end times - the demise of America has already taken place so that we are much less of a world focus.
The bible speaks of Jacob's trouble, but I don't think there means the America is destroyed before the end.
Besides, think of America on the grand scale - we have only been on the scene for a few SECONDS comparatively, and the UK for a few minutes longer. With that perspective, can we be we that arrogant to believe we must matter more than anyone/anything/anywhere else?
We matter more if we love God more. And the most people that love YHVH are in America.
Second of all, speaking of logic - I would imagine that you would agree that it is completely illogical that Israel gets the astounding amount of worldwide attention that she does. Someone sneezes in Israel and it makes the AP. The UN has based a large majority of their resolutions upon condemning Israel. The Muslim world is absolutely obsessed with that tiny scrap of land.
I didn't say that Judah isn't part of prophetic Israel, did I? I just said that America and the UK are Manasseh and Ephraim respectively and therefore got the name of Israel, with Ephraim having the birthright. The country Israel (should be called Judah) is part of prophetic Israel, but they never had the birthright. They have always had the sceptor though. The "British" kingline is actually a Judean kingline since God promised David there would always be one of his seed on his throne. That is the sceptor.
Going back even further than that - the Jews have always, VERY illogically, been the focus of blind hatred, persecution, destruction, ethnic cleansing, and obliteration, more than any other genetic line or religious group of people in the history of the world.
Because they are the focus of Satan and his seed. Satan knew that Messiah would be of the seed of Judah and David. All the hate you see directed toward the tribe of Judah is directed that way because of the attacks from Satan and his seed.
Relentlessly they have been targeted, and still are. If America is the real intent behind biblical prophecy, why do you think Satan has tried so hard to destroy the Jews?
Because Jesus was of the tribe of Judah. Ephraim (Britain) has the birthright, but Judah has the sceptor. It's that sceptor that Satan wants.
God hated Esua while he was still in the womb. That means Esau did something in the first age that God was angry about. Plus there was a larger purpose to what Joshua did, the people Joshua was conquering were hybrids of the supernatural fallen angels. They had to be destroyed so this test age could continue in the manner God wanted it to continue. That means just flesh, not supermen.
Irrational.
God is a loving God.
God created all men.
God created Esau.
God hated Esau, before he was even born.
God judges men without merit.
That means Esau did something in the first age that God was angry about.
Irrational.
Why didn't God judge him then?
Plus there was a larger purpose to what Joshua did, the people Joshua was conquering were hybrids of the supernatural fallen angels. They had to be destroyed so this test age could continue in the manner God wanted it to continue. That means just flesh, not supermen.
Ah yes... the ole "they were monsters" excuse.
(only it doesn't fit with the Bible's description of events at all)
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