Posted on 10/20/2001 11:46:14 AM PDT by Khepera
There has been a lot of discussion about Prayer in Schools and Government or other public buildings or spaces. Should we allow the posting of the Ten Commandments and or other “Religious” statements or expressions in our public places? Should we allow school officials, students, Parents or, any other people to stand up and publicly lead others in prayer? I have done a lot of research on this topic and I wish to share with you what I have found. I have referenced numerous sources and present my findings here I present this to you as the truth.
First we need a little history about this great country. The United States Constitution is divided into seven Articles. The first three Articles outline the roles and responsibilities of the legislative, executive and judicial branches of government, respectively. Articles four, five and six pertain to the states, constitutional amendments and the hierarchy of laws, and Article seven deals with the ratification of the Constitution. The remainder of the Constitution consists of a series of amendments which have been adopted over the past 209 years.
The Constitution was not adopted right away by all the states. Men such as Patrick Henry argued passionately against adopting the U.S. Constitution. One of Patrick Henry’s objections to the Constitution was that it did not do enough to protect the liberty of States who joined the union or the liberty of the people as individuals. In a speech delivered on June 9, 1788, Patrick Henry said of the Constitution, “The defects of this system are so numerous and palpable, and so many States object to it, that no union can be expected, unless it be amended... New Hampshire and Rhode Island have rejected it... New York and North Carolina are reported to be strongly against it.”
In order to address the issues raised by those concerned about the rights of the states and the people, a “Bill of Rights” was proposed to guarantee the federal government would not overstep the boundaries in which the framers of the constitution intended it to operate. The first 10 amendments, which make up the Bill of Rights, were ratified on December 15, 1791.
The first amendment guarantees, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
It is important to notice that the words “separation”, “church” and “State” are not even contained in the first amendment. The origin of the phrase “separation of church and State” can be traced back to a letter written by President Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in 1802. The Danbury Baptists had heard a rumor that the United States was about to choose a national religion and they wrote to President Jefferson to express their concerns. When Jefferson wrote back to them he explained that the United States couldn’t choose a national religion because the first amendment prohibited the government from passing a law respecting an establishment of religion, “thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” Even though this is not an “Official” document it is clear that what it means is that the government of the United States cannot tell you that you have to be a “Roman Catholic” or a “Jew” or any other particular religion.
For the next 145 years the Supreme Court occasionally referenced Jefferson’s letter and kept it in context. It was not until 1947, in the case of Everson v. Board of Education, that the Supreme Court cited just 8 words of Jefferson’s letter and began promoting the idea of separation of church and State. By 1958, when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on the case of Baer v. Kolmorgen, Justice Gallagher wrote, “Much has been written in recent years concerning Thomas Jefferson’s reference in 1802 to ‘a wall of separation between church and State’... Jefferson’s figure of speech has received so much attention that one would almost think at times that it is to be found somewhere in our Constitution.”
The problem with the first amendment is that the word “religion” was never defined in the constitution. President Jefferson viewed the wording of the first amendment as a protection for religious freedom. The Court agreed for nearly 150 years before they began to redefine religion as meaning nearly anything with religious overtones. In 1962 the Court decided the first amendment prohibited school prayer and in 1963 the Court decided the first amendment prohibited the bible from being in public schools. Then, in 1980, the Court decided it was a violation of the first amendment to even have a copy of the Ten Commandments hanging in the classroom.
The 1980 decision is especially interesting when you consider the words of James Madison. Madison was the 4th President of the United States and he was known as the “Chief Architect of the Constitution” because he spoke 161 times in the constitutional convention. One of Madison’s most famous quotes states, “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
Returning to the intentions of Thomas Jefferson, on three different occasions he negotiated treaties with the Indians on behalf of our nation. Each time as part of these treaties it was mandated that the United States Government supply every Indian a Judeo-Christian Bible which was printed and distributed through the government printing office in Washington DC. These bibles where printed and distributed by the government using public funds. The first public schools where started in Washington DC and the only books which where printed and provided (by the government) for the schools where the Bible and a popular Christian Hymnal Written by Isaac Watts. (The Watts Hymnal is still in use today) both books where intended to be taught in school. These where government supported documents.
So it has been established that, the founders of our nation never intended for the types of restrictions on our freedom to practice our religion that have been imposed on us today. (Remember Christians are the Majority). It has been established that they intended that the laws of our country (and we as individuals) are to be guided by the 10 Commandments that you so wantonly desire to be removed from public view. We know that in fact the Government of the United States was intended by our founders to be in fact based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. This does not mean that you have to be a “Christian” and recite Christian Prayers.
This is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible belt. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect - somebody chanting Hare Krishna? If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a Ping-Pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. As a matter of fact in certain communities all around the United States I may hear many of the religions I have just mentioned and they would be the majority in that community.
Does this mean that you can pray to what ever deity you wish and in the name of whatever religion you hold dear. Yes! During the period of “Prayer” in the Christian community when the majority of people around you are saying “Dear heavenly father who art in heaven” You may also start your prayer. When the majority of people around you say “Amen” you must end your prayer. This is because you wish to be polite and not disrupt those around you. Now if your community is made up of mostly Jews or Hindus or some other religion then that religion will be the dominant religion in your community and the “Christians” will have to listen to your prayers while they are saying their own. They may also have to take days off (From school or maybe even work) which honor your religion because of your communities majority status. This is called “Majority Rules” or by other names a “Democracy”.
"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 to 60 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman, or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. In other words be polite and no one will be hurt.
So the Liberals will tell you that it is all in the Interpretation. I would like to address this now. There is a big difference between Interpret and Translate. Translate is to move the meaning of the words in question into another language while keeping the same meaning. (This could also include factors like “Context”) Interpretation on the other hand, is either an attempt to understand words which we do not understand the meaning of or, when we try to change the meaning of words that we do understand.
An example of this would be found in the play Romeo and Juliet, when Juliet says “Romeo, Romeo, where fore art thou Romeo?”. What do you think this means? Most people today will answer this by saying that she was asking Romeo where he was. Bugs Bunny says “Here I am!”. Now this is an interpretation based on Ignorance. In Elizabethan English, which is what this play was written in, Juliet by saying “Where fore art Thou” was actually asking Romeo “By what right do you call yourself Romeo?”. She was asking this because it was by his name that they where forbidden to be together.
Interpretation is what the “Liberals” use to change the meanings of words, that we all know and understand, to suit their own desires. The words in the Constitution and Bill of rights have not lost their meaning over the last 200 years. We all recognize and understand the meaning of these words.
Again, they say “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” These words are clear.
When you change the meaning of words which are clear then you are a liar. The “Liberals” are notorious for this exact thing. President Clinton was the “Greatest Liberal leader” of the last century and look at how many times he lied and twisted words for his own selfish desires. Liberals do not promote “Democracy” they are not “Truthful” and they do not care about anybody but themselves. To further illustrate this point I would like to point out that even in the light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary “Liberals” will reject the truth.
Conservatives that say they believe that the removal of prayer from the schools is because of the “Separation of church and state” are either too ignorant to serve public office or they are “Lying Liberals” you can take your pick. Either way they should be removed from office as they have betrayed the Constitution of the United States of America and have become “Traitors”. They have violated their oath of office and should be condemned.
All laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion or freedom of speech in public places (in particular, Schools, and Government Buildings) should be Ignored as they are Un-Constitutional and therefore Un-Lawful.
If you take the time to do some research, you will see that the exponential increase in public school violence, teen pregnancy, foul language, and a general lack of respect for others, all started at exactly the time the Supreme Court threw prayer and Bible reading out of the schools. We told God we didn't need HIM, and the results speak for themselves. For this nation or the people in it to let a few miscreants and heathens destroy the very foundation of our country (putting our families and neighbors at risk) all because they want to be shielded from the truth about their Sinful and destructive behaviors, is a national tragedy.
Lets put an end to it.
*NOTE: Because I know people will ask, “what does Sui Juris mean?” I include this explanation. Sui Juris is a Latin term which means “Someone who can handle their own affairs.” or “I’ll be my own judge!” or “I’ll be the judge of that!”.
I inivte you to suggest several options and the one you prefer. In an abortion discussion, a 'pro-lifer' is generally going to be defined as someone who does not support most or any legal abortions. That is so obvious. Of course precise definitions exist, such a precise definition adds to understanding the post to which you replied with this non-sequitur of a question.
You won't be setting the tone of this with meaningless rhetoric................I want you to put your nihilistic way of thinking up on the table.
So start pointing it out...you seem to think you have plenty of ammunition.
The why doesn't it say freedom of expression? It
doesn't, but that's what it means. Hmm.
So if someone buys a flag and burns it,
we interpret that as expressing themselves.
And we simultaneously interpret 'speech'
to mean expression. Hence, it is a protected act. See what I mean?
Why not?
Why should other doctrines take precedence over this? Think carefully.
Because I am more interested, for now,
in the dynamics of Supreme Court
interaction between the Constitution
and legislation. Hot button issues per se are
inflammatory to the discussion.
Maybe one day when I feel like getting banned,
we can venture your way. :)
You brought it up, not me.
I want to hear from any self proclaimed "pro-choicer" what a pro-lifer is.....it's a very simple question.
So if the Supreme Court rules that those who post to Free Republic are no longer eligible to vote, that would be Constitutional?
Or if your neighbor forces you at gunpoint to work in his cotton field, and the Supreme Court says that's fine, that would be Constitutional?
The court has overstepped its bounds. Its moral authority is diminishing and moral authority is the only kind of authority it has.
May God grant that Bush put honorable people on the bench.
I think you are wrong. I think the argument has always be careful couched in a bed of lies and misinformation, which always has the possibility of being counteracted by real information.
You raise a very good point....the shadowy dealings of the USSC............
Especially those in Florida. :)
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