Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Constitutional Apologetics on Prayer in School
Self | 20-October-2001 | Michael Miessen

Posted on 10/20/2001 11:46:14 AM PDT by Khepera

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-114 next last
God will never bless those who have turned him out.
1 posted on 10/20/2001 11:46:14 AM PDT by Khepera (mdmiessen@indy.rr.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Khepera
Jefferson's letter.


2 posted on 10/20/2001 11:53:04 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


3 posted on 10/20/2001 11:55:02 AM PDT by ThanksBTTT
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Khepera
You correctly capture the understanding and beliefs of the Founding Fathers. To better understand the distortions that have taken place, see Leftwing Word Games & The First Amendment.

The attack on the American religious tradition comes from the same circles that attack all other aspects of our traditional culture and values.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

4 posted on 10/20/2001 11:56:26 AM PDT by Ohioan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Khepera
I'll Bump To That.
5 posted on 10/20/2001 11:58:05 AM PDT by hattend
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Khepera
Establishment Clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ..."

The Establishment Clause has generally come to mean that government cannot authorize a church, cannot pass laws that aid or favor one religion over another, cannot pass laws that favor religious belief over non belief, cannot force a person to profess a belief. In short, government must be neutral toward religion and cannot be entangled with any religion.


Religion in public schools

Minersville v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586 (1940) - Supreme Court rules that a public school may require students to salute the flag and pledge allegiance even if it violates their religious scruples.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) - Court overturns Gobitis but is broader in its scope. No one can be forced to salute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance if it violates the individual conscience.

McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203 (1948) - Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

Zorach v. Clausen, 343 U.S. 306 (1952) - Court finds that release time from public school classes for religious instruction does not violate the establishment clause.

Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962) - Court finds school prayer unconstitutional.

Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.

Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97 (1968) - Court says the state cannot ban the teaching of evolution.

Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980) - Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38 (1985) - Court finds state law enforcing a moment of silence in schools had a religious purpose and is therefore unconstitutional.

Edwards v. Aquillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987) - Court finds state law requiring equal treatment for creationism has a religious purpose and is therefore unconstitutional.

Board of Education v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 226 (1990) - The court rules that the Equal Access Act does not violate the First Amendment. Public schools that receive federal funds and maintain a "limited open forum" on school grounds after school hours cannot deny "equal access" to student groups based upon "religious, political, philosophical, or other content."

Lee v. Weisman, 112 SCt. 2649 (1992) - Court finds prayer at public school graduation ceremonies violates the establishment clause and is therefore unconstitutional.

Lamb's Chapel et al. v. Center Moriches Union Free School District, 508 U.S. 384 (1993) - Court says that school districts cannot deny churches access to school premises after-hours, if the district allowed the use of its building to other groups.

Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, (1994) - Court states that the New York State Legislature cannot create a separate school district for a religious community.

Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, (2000) - Court rules that student-led prayers at public school football games violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Good News Club v. Milford Central School, (2001) - Court rules that Milford Central School cannot keep Good News Club from using its facilities because the school had created a limited public forum and prohibiting the religious club was viewpoint discrimination.

6 posted on 10/20/2001 12:01:17 PM PDT by dbbeebs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Khepera
"Who is it who cannot see that the same who would consecrate Christianity above all other religions would then have to consecrate a particular sect of Christians above all other sects?" - James Madison.
7 posted on 10/20/2001 12:02:27 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dbbeebs
So whats your point? You forgot to include your point. Are you defending all of these Un-Constitutional court decisions or not?
8 posted on 10/20/2001 12:05:12 PM PDT by Khepera
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Khepera
Here's the REAL Constitutional solution to this "thorny" issue. There SHOULD be a complete separation of church and state. The state SHOULD not sponsor, promote, or subsidize religion. This means that the state should not hire chaplains, and the state should not run schools. In other words, there should be complete separation of church and state, and in order to keep the state from interfering with religion, the state should have extremely limited power and extremely limited scope for its activities.
9 posted on 10/20/2001 12:09:30 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Khepera
A Supreme Court decision cannot be unconstitutional since the Supreme Court is tasked with interpreting the meaning of the Constitution.
10 posted on 10/20/2001 12:10:39 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Non-Sequitur
A Supreme Court decision cannot be unconstitutional since the Supreme Court is tasked with interpreting the meaning of the Constitution.

Please refer to the section of my article regarding Interpreting things.

11 posted on 10/20/2001 12:13:20 PM PDT by Khepera
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Non-Sequitur
Ah, well there you go. Exactly where is the power the the SCOTUS uses to 'interpret' as you say, in the Constitution? Oh, I forgot, Chief Justice Marshall laying the groundwork of interpreting the document for another one of your heroes with that 'judicial review' malarky in 1803. You can't get it to say what you want, so you just fool around with the wording a bit. BTW, just because the Federal Government was not allowed to pick a religion, Jefferson himself strongly recommended the stateS pick their own official religions. But of course that was another one of those pesky state rights things that was thrown out the window over a hundred years ago.
12 posted on 10/20/2001 12:22:26 PM PDT by billbears
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: dbbeebs
The Establishment Clause has generally come to mean that

So you're starting with that nonsense again are you? "generally come to mean" isn't the same as the truth, is it? What you're looking for so hard just isn't in the Constitution, and all your twisting of the facts doesn't make it so. What part of "prohibiting the free excercise thereof" don't you understand? Take your silly anti religious sentiments over to DU where they will be appreciated. You're a sad, sick person.

13 posted on 10/20/2001 12:27:13 PM PDT by goodieD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: Non-Sequitur
You will get some argument with that particularly concerning Dred Scott and Roe v Wade.
15 posted on 10/20/2001 12:38:15 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: dbbeebs
The Establishment Clause has generally come to mean that government cannot authorize a church, cannot pass laws that aid or favor one religion over another, cannot pass laws that favor religious belief over non belief, cannot force a person to profess a belief. In short, government must be neutral toward religion and cannot be entangled with any religion.

The definition, however, canbot be established by review of prior cases. It is in fact a priori, based on Black's(and other judges') desire to end political discussion about aid to Catholic Schools and impose a national rule on the states.

16 posted on 10/20/2001 12:45:33 PM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: goodieD; tex-oma; Non-Sequitur; Khepera; JMJ333; dbbeebs
since the Supreme Court is tasked with
interpreting the meaning of the Constitution.

Where is this written?

I thought this would be a slam dunk, but
it isn't, is it?   

                     To the judges, the
                    ministers of this power, it belongs to interpret all acts of the legislature,
                    agreeably to the true principles of the constitution

I don't think the supreme court really gets into interpreting
acts of legislature, does it?  If the law is being enforced as
written, the defendants don't have much hope outside
proving unconstitutionality.  See the Nichols thing,
wherein his constitutional remedies ended when the SC
ruled the FBI files were immaterial, regardless of the
intentions of the law being challenged, ie habeas corpus.

The legislative history of a bill usually provides
an indication of the framer intentions, so that
judicial interpretation is at a minimum, I would
think.

Isn't it more accurate to say that the SC
interprets the Constitution such that it
casts a light on the legislation in question
and renders it either within Constitutional
limits or not?

17 posted on 10/20/2001 12:55:56 PM PDT by gcruse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan
Prudentially this may be a nice idea that would work well. HOwever it is not in accord with the words of the Constitution nor the original understanding of those words.

The prohibition of "Establishment" of religion absolutely was understood by EVERYONE of that era as meaning all forms of Protestant Christianity were to be treated equally and none favored by any government.

In practice this meant that that the majority religion in a town could collect TAXES to support the local denominational church even from members of another denomination (unless the local member of a minority denomination had a certificate of his belonging and attending another denomination's church).

In practice it also meant that Catholicism, Judaism and Quakerism were LEGALLY substandard to basic vanilla Protestantism.

Anti-Catholicism (actually pro-generic-Protestantism) was very much a part of the USA's founding.

While I am glad that anti-Catholicism is no longer legal, I regret that the COnstitution has been ignored in doing so. Inother words, I am not willing to accept the good outcome at the expense of destroying the Constitution.

The USA has always overtly and officially relied upon God. Those who declare otherwise are truly very ignorant - though understandably so given the Supreme Court's pretense over the last 140 years that increasingly ignores the facts.

Those truly interested in the facts can freepmail me for the references.

18 posted on 10/20/2001 1:01:34 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: goodieD
The Establishment Clause has generally come to mean that government cannot authorize a church, cannot pass laws that aid or favor one religion over another, cannot pass laws that favor religious belief over non belief, cannot force a person to profess a belief. In short, government must be neutral toward religion and cannot be entangled with any religion

So how does this negate my ability to freely exercise my religious beliefs by standing up in school and reciting a prayer or leading a group in prayer? How does this negate my right to freely speak of my beliefs in school or any other public place? The lies of the Liberal courts are contrary to the constitution of the United States.

19 posted on 10/20/2001 1:06:22 PM PDT by Khepera
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Notwithstanding
NB: "Establishment" had the same meaning in all of the original states' constitutions and in the US Constitution. Orogonally (prior to post-Civil War amendments) the US constitution prohibited only the fed govt from establishment - whereas the state constitutions also prohibited state govts from establishment. But establishemnt had a very precise definition - and nothing at all like the definition almost every American understands it to have today. This has been accomplished over time by deceit and actually lies- and not due to some "will of the people".

SCOTUS opinions actually contain bald-faced and absolute errors (I would say lies) as to the meaning of "establishment" and the historical context of that word.

] It is truly enough to make one rage or cry when one realizes how the lie has been foisted upon generations of school kids who propagate it and believe for the rest of their lives.

20 posted on 10/20/2001 1:09:46 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-114 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson