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The previous thread, Defense of Liberty: Two Articles On Anti-Terrorist Policy by Peikoff , where Dr. Peikoff advocates a massive military retaliation for the Twin Tower Massacre, and, among other things, expresses regret that the nationalization of our oil companies in the Middle East was allowed to happen, spurred a far-reaching debate between Demidog and me. This installment addresses the issue of military intervention head-on.
1 posted on 10/20/2001 7:27:01 AM PDT by annalex
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To: Agrarian; A.J.Armitage; AKbear; annalex; arimus; Askel5; Boxsford; Carbon; Carry_Okie...

The Apparition of St. Michael by Pacino di Bonaguida


2 posted on 10/20/2001 7:31:48 AM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex
The March/April resolution is true.

What is truth? - Pontius Pilate

:

3 posted on 10/20/2001 8:12:57 AM PDT by ppaul
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To: annalex
One derivative of the right to life is the right to self-defense, the right to use retaliatory force against those who initiate force. Citizens delegate this right to the government, which therefore holds a monopoly on its use, placed under objective control, to protect individual rights.

I don't agree with this at all. I do not delegate this right to anyone.

5 posted on 10/20/2001 10:02:20 AM PDT by Demidog
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To: annalex; Demidog; *Paleo_list
I have to say, reading over the discussion in the last thread, that I agree with Annalex, especially with regard to real property. Let me open with a quotation from Frederic Bastiat.

So true is it that property is prior to law that it is recognized even among savages who do not have laws, or at least not written laws. When a savage has devoted his labor to constructing a hut, no one will dispute his possession or ownership of it. To be sure, another, stronger savage may chase him out of it, but not without angering and alarming the whole tribe. It is this very abuse of force which gives rise to association, to common agreement, to law, and which puts the public police force at the service of property. Hence, law is born of property, instead of property being born of law.

One may say that the principle of property is recognized even among animals. The swallow peacefully cares for its young in the nest that it has built by its own efforts.

Since we're discussing whether land can be property prior to the existence of government, lets take the example of an ordinary guy in a pre-civilized society. He builds a hut, as in Bastiat's example above, and plants some grain nearby. It seems fairly obvious that anyone taking the hut and crops from him by force is committing a crime. Isn't that the definition of ownership? He has a right to that land because no one may rightly take it from him. His ownership may be "temporary", but no more so than his ownership of anything else. In fact, it's longer lasting than his ownership of the grains he grows, which are eaten or bartered over the course of the next year. Mobility also seems to me to be a non-issue. By some of the arguments DD put forth, land holds up better than other forms of property. Jumping to modern times, people own cars for relatively short periods of time(I've been driving since I was 16, and have had two cars in that time; it would be one if I hadn't wrecked the first one, but it illustrates the point), but they are certainly movable. Cars are also registered with the government. I have a deed for my car.

7 posted on 10/20/2001 12:08:39 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: annalex
Rand contradicts herself by first claiming nations can have no rights, but then goes on to make distinctions between the rights of free nations vs. dictatorial nations:

Nations as such — like any other collectives — have no rights. In her essay “Collectivized Rights,” Ayn Rand notes:---Here, we see that nations not only do not have rights, but cannot have rights, according to Rand.

Here, she makes distinctions between the rights of free nations and that dictatorial nations, savage tribes, etc. do not have those rights:

"A free nation — a nation that recognizes, respects and protects the individual rights of its citizens — has a right to its territorial integrity, its social system and its form of government."

In this quote, Rand is actually saying that what she defines as a free nation has a right to BE a nation. All a nation comprises consists of its territorial boundaries, its civilization and culture, and its form of government within those geographical boundaries. Our State constitutions at one time set forth their geographic boundaries by longitude and latitude, among other geographic descriptions of their boundaries. Once the geographic limits of the State were set forth, the State Constitution would then describe the form and organization of the government and guarantee the rights of the State's citizens. A nation is a geographic area in which the people possess a given civilization, culture, and form of government. As this is what a nation is, and Rand states these are the rights that are possessed by a free nation, free nations, therefore, are the only nations allowed to be nations. That is what Rand is really saying. "Territorial Integrity" is an element of sovereignty.

"A nation that violates the rights of its own citizens cannot claim any rights whatsoever. The right of the ‘self-determination of nations’ applies only to free societies or to societies seeking to establish freedom; it does not apply to dictatorships."

Sentence 1: Rand states that a nation that violates the rights of citizens has no rights, but earlier, Rand stated that nations, and other collectives, have no rights. This is a contradiction, which she attempts to eliminate by making a distinction between free and dictatorial nations.Sentence 2: This is further proof that Rand is saying that only free nations can be nations.

Rand confuses "nation" with "government," which is a common error. The government of this nation has intervened in several foreign conflicts without the consent of the people of the nation. Many government acts are performed in total secrecy, so the people cannot give their consent to those actions. The government decides to intervene, not the nation as a whole, in these cases. When this takes place, is there any more right for the "nation" (government) to intervene?

Nations either have rights or they do not. I prefer to think that nations do have rights, as the nations exist, and are comprised of human persons who undeniably possess rights. When one nation's government commits unjust aggression against another nation and its government, it makes legal sense to set forth the victim's claim against the injustice of the aggressor in the terms of nations, and their rights, rather than citing the rights of each individual citizen.

This is an attempt to replace traditional just war principles, based mostly on religion and classical philosophy, with one compatible with an materialist/atheist worldview. It is like replacing fresh sqeezed orange juice with Tang.

9 posted on 10/20/2001 12:43:31 PM PDT by roughrider
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To: annalex
"A government may, for example, send troops into the territory of another government without its consent in order to suppress conflicts (e.g., the dispatch of an expeditionary force against the Boxers in China in 1901, or against Poncho Villa in Mexico in 1916)"

This description is not entirely accurate about either incident. In 1916, Pancho Villa attacked the town of Columbus, New Mexico first. The Punitive Expedition was launched to find and punish Villa in retaliation for his attack. In the Boxer Rebellion, the Boxers also struck the first blow, attacking the foreign legations in Peking, where our diplomats were housed and is considered sovereign US territory, as the Chinese Embassy was, and is, here. Our maintenance of gunboats in Chinese rivers during the early decades of the century would have been a better example, as they were there to protect missionaries and US business people, who should have gone to China at their own risk.

11 posted on 10/20/2001 12:59:50 PM PDT by roughrider
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To: *libertarians
Inadvertently I left out the blurb about the author. Here it is

The author, Ben Bayer, is the coordinator of the ARI debate program. He is a past state champion in policy and four-time national qualifier in foreign extemp, L-D, and policy. He coached debate and extemp for two years, producing a state championship team and several national qualifiers. He is presently a graduate student in philosophy and a student at the objectivist Graduate Center. He can be contacted at benb@aynrand.org.

I will get to everyone's responses tomorrow. As always, thank you for your thoughtful replies.

12 posted on 10/20/2001 5:47:01 PM PDT by annalex
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bump.
21 posted on 10/21/2001 6:27:32 PM PDT by patent
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To: *libertarians; LSJohn; Demidog; tex-oma; Architect
From Whether it is always sinful to wage war? (Aquinas on Just War):

In order for a war to be just, three things are necessary. First, the authority of the sovereign by whose command the war is to be waged.[...]

Secondly, a just cause is required, namely that those who are attacked, should be attacked because they deserve it on account of some fault. [...]

Thirdly, it is necessary that the belligerents should have a rightful intention, so that they intend the advancement of good, or the avoidance of evil. [...]

St. Thomas Aquinas, the man who understood natural law, also understood war.
89 posted on 10/24/2001 10:30:06 AM PDT by annalex
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New thread:

Defense of Liberty. Philosophy: Who Needs It?

134 posted on 10/28/2001 4:35:31 PM PST by annalex
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