"To: First Conservative
‘Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years they would swarm in greater numbers than all the reformers.' (Roman Catholic Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, 1504-1579, official representative of the pope and presiding officer of the Council of Trent.)
That quotation is a fraud. But what can we expect when you use The Trail of Blood as your history book.
Baptists are not Reformers
Your(sic) right, in the truest sense of the word they were not Reformers(neither were Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc... How can people who fractured the Body of Christ be called Reformers is beyond me). But they all, including the Baptists, have their origins in the Reformation.
97/162 posted on 10/12/01 7:01 AM Pacific by Catholic(sic) dignan3"
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Note: I have reposted your kind, well documented, and thoughtful reply - SARCASM - so that the "Cardinal" Hosius quote can be restated. In copying the tripe of your response to my P77/T162 addressed to allend, I have corrected your "(sic)" marks and deleted your offensive repetitious request for prayer for YOUR spiritual Father, that Polish RC priest you call "Pope."
So, the poster, dignan3, whom I rejected as a heretic on P16/T66 for deceptively using selected, but disputed, quotations to support HIS OPINIONS, who claimed he was departing these threads 08/28/01, T129 because he was going back to school - a "computer science student" (attending Franciscan U.?) - is back spewing his hatred of all non-Roman Catholics. Did he/she wash out of theological school?
By calling the quotation from YOUR "Cardinal" Hosius a fraud, you are claiming he did not make such a statement. Incidentally, your assertion of my reference for that quote is incorrect, although "The Trail of Blood" is a book I would recommend to any seeker of the TRUTH! The source for the quote: Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, Letters, APUD OPERA, pp 112,113.
Your criticism of the Reformation (note no "sic") is incorrect and unjustified. My reading (not from RC sources, obviously, as is yours) is that the RC priest, Martin Luther, was disgusted and sickened by the dishonesty and immorality of YOUR church - headed by a "Pope" - and was striving to "REFORM" it - the RCC.
Since all Cathlicks(sic), beginning about 250 A.D., came out of the church of Believers which Jesus founded, the church of God of the Scriptures, composed of Believers who were ALL Baptists (critically called anabaptists, "rebaptizers", by their critics since they would not accept infant baptism or baptisms by others), Catholics(sic) like yourself are apostate Baptists! LOL That is why Baptists were not and are not "Reformers" - they were NOT trying to REFORM the apostate Catholic(sic) church, which is NOT, by definition, the "Body of Christ"! The reform of the Roman Catholic Church, YOUR church, was attempted in the 1500s by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others and is generally termed by most historians as the REFORMATION!!! Live with it!
Let me state it again - since you have obvious difficulty accepting and comprehending TRUTH - the First Century church, the earliest Body of Christ, the Believers who were called Christians or Nazarenes, observed the ordinance of Baptism as did Jesus - they were BAPTISTS!!!
Flame away, RCs - I know the TRUTH can be difficult for you after the years of brainwashing.
(Or, I'm sorry, was any of that any actual history showing the existence of historical baptists prior to the reformation?
SD
The quote is most definitely a fraud. And your source is J. Carroll’s “Trail of Blood”, since he uses the same reference as you do. The problem is there is no section titled "Apud Opera" among Hosius‘ complete works. And there is also no letter of that name. So the reference "Letters, Apud Opera" is meaningless.
You’re just to darn gullible FC.
Let's see what 5 minutes of web time can find. Let's search google.com for "APUD OPERA." Well looke here, first entry.
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/hosius.html
An excerpt:
The purported statement is nowhere to be found in the letters of Cardinal Hosius
There is no section titled "Apud Opera" among Hosius‘ complete works. And there is no letter of that name. So the reference "Letters, Apud Opera" is apparently meaningless. Similarly, I could find no publication of his with this title.
I decided to check all of Cardinal Hosius‘ letters for references to the Anabaptists. The section in his "Opera Omnia" entitled "Liber Epistelarum" contains all of Cardinal Hosius‘ letters, 277 in total, written in Latin. I have read through all of these letters, and in only 12 of them (letters XXVIII, XLI, XLIII, CV, CXVI, CXXVIII, CXXIX, CXXXIV, CL, CLVII, CLVIII, and CLX) is there any mention of the Anabaptists. In none of them is to be found the statement cited at the top. To all intents and purposes, this statement appears to be a fake.
Nowhere in the letters of Hosius are the "reformers" referred to as such. Rather, they are referred to as "Lutherani", "Calvinisti", "Zuingliani" and, especially in his other works, "haeretici". The purported statement of Hosius uses language he never uses in his "Opera omnia", and so its authenticity must be called into question.
The citation by various Baptist websites of two completely different purported statements by Cardian Hosuis, both given the same page reference, adds to the doubt about the genuineness of either. (The second purported statement is quoted in Note 1 below). The said statements are purported to be found on pages 112, 113 of "Apud Opera". However, only one statement can be found crossing over from page 112 to 113. How can you get two different statements, both starting on page 112 and both ending on page 113? (The only possibility would be if one statement were embedded in the other, but that is clearly not the case here.)
Well gee. The purported work does not exist. In his other works he refers to particular heresies by name, and not as "reformers," so even the language used is suspect.
And finally different Baptist "historians" cite two different quotes as appearing on the same two pages of this nonexistant work.
Yep, that's Protestant (Baptist) scholarship for ya.
Tell me about TRUTH again.
SD