Fire away, Gridley.
First, is it then, as referenced earlier, the same knowing - factual historical knowing - that constitutes "believing on Christ"? Believing used in this same sense as we believe that Napolean crowned himself emperor? A reasoned conclusion based on credible historical evidence?
I think that is part of it, but there's more. This makes me think of an illustration I heard once, it was particularly helpful to my wife. Say you are on a ship in the middle of the ocean, you fall overboard. Someone notices your plight and tosses you a life preserver. The life preserver lands next to you. You can look at the life preserver and intellectually understand that if you were to place your weight on it, it would save your life. You could still be intellectually acknowledging that fact even as your head went under the water for the last time. It is only when you place yourself on the life preserver, in the faith that it will do what you intellectually know it can do, that your life will be saved.
Jesus is the same way. My mother, for example, knows that Christ exists, well existed for her, and she knows that He died on the cross, and she knows that the Bible says that it was for her sins that He died. However, she has never trusted in that for her salvation. It is only when we trust our eternal destiny to Him and what He has done for us that we are saved from the wrath to come.
On what basis did you decide that the Bible was God's testimony; which other scriptures and teachings did you examine using this same criteria? This would seem to me to be a necessary preceeding informed decision in order for those following to have a sound foundation.
There comes a time when you need to stop the endless questioning and wondering and just believe. Throughout my life I had always known there was a God. I believe that we humans are designed with a default setting that acknowledges a Creator, we have to try to believe that there is no God. I was just never sure who God was. As a child, the only time I would go to church was when my Great-Grandmother came to visit. I would walk to church with her and when we visited her she would let me read her Bible.
I was married when I was 23 years old. When our daughter was two years old (I was 25 by then) I decided that we should start going to church. My wife knew of a little Baptist church the next town over that her sister attended. We went to that church. The first Sunday there I walked down the aisle to tell the Pastor that I wasn't sure I was going to Heaven, but that I wanted to know.
The assistant Pastor took me to his office and opened the Bible and showed me verses that I had never heard of before. He showed me Ro 3:23, that told me that everyone has sinned, no exceptions. He showed me Ro 6:23, which said that the wages of sin was death, but that we could have eternal life through the gift of Jesus Christ. He showed me John 3:36, which said that if you did not believe on the Son that God's wrath was abiding on you.
I bowed my head and acknowledged to God that I was indeed a sinner. I told Him that I believed what He said about Jesus Christ and I asked Him to forgive me because of what Jesus had done for ME. That was on November 29, 1992. That was the day that I became a Christian. My home in Heaven has been secure since that day.
I knew the Scriptures were the Word of God, not by extensive research and comparison, but by how the words spoke to my soul.
Intellectualism has its place. It is not "intrinsically evil", to borrow a phrase from a recent discussion on this thread. God expects us to use the brains that He gave us. But if we are not careful, we could intellectualize ourselves, or others, right into Hell. There comes a time when we need to stop trying to verify and corroborate facts and just believe.
Many thanks for your courteous discussion.
No thanks are necessary, this has been my pleasure. I look forward to hearing your response.
-ksen
I knew the Scriptures were the Word of God, not by extensive research and comparison, but by how the words spoke to my soul.
Intellectualism has its place. It is not "intrinsically evil", to borrow a phrase from a recent discussion on this thread. God expects us to use the brains that He gave us. But if we are not careful, we could intellectualize ourselves, or others, right into Hell. There comes a time when we need to stop trying to verify and corroborate facts and just believe.
More than fact knowing, yes, and you then talk of something more than historical knowing:
It is only when you place yourself on the life preserver, in the faith that it will do what you intellectually know it can do, that your life will be saved.
Perhaps you mean something more than knowing by saying "place yourself"? I think you mean "trust." You are saying trust this set historical facts, trust them with your ultimate fate. But on what basis is that decision to trust based? Is it also a reasoned mental choice?
There comes a time when you need to stop the endless questioning and wondering and just believe.
Ah, but you know me, not stopping the questions just yet. :)
…just believe.
Why? Why choose to believe this set of historical facts (we haven't explored them fully yet, maybe later). On what basis or criteria can we "believe on Christ"? If it is a choice to believe, why choose it?
I wasn't sure I was going to Heaven, but that I wanted to know.
Is this a version of the oft mis-used Pascal's wager? Is "believing on Christ" necessarily a choice made, in order to gain a reward? If the gain were removed, is there no other criteria or basis on which we "just believe"? Would we not believe on Christ if we are punished for it?
I am skipping over some parts of your reply that point in a different direction because you come back again to this place:
But if we are not careful, we could intellectualize ourselves, or others, right into Hell. There comes a time when we need to stop trying to verify and corroborate facts and just believe.
Are these the only possible alternatives:
1) Factual/historical verification/intellectualization that is inconclusive or ultimately ineffective; versus
2) A decision based on avoiding punishment and gaining reward?
In my view, you have answered this, but it is hidden and obscured and so, to me, it seems not yet fully realized, or maybe it is a difference between some people. So I keep asking questions; I think they are valuable for us both. It is not, in my opinion, necessarily the same for all. We are, after all, discussing something that neither of us has the finally authority over.
thank you very much for your reply.