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Wordsmith, this post was from you on P-1092, sent as post on 1/26/02 I had printed it out, and since that thread is now deleted, I’m glad I did, so here are my answers to your questions.

The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mary

Question #1, What is your understanding of the difference between betrothed and marriage?

Without looking up the specific words, right off hand, I would say that betrothed would be the same as our engaged, and marriage would be when it is legalized by the civil courts or a Church, so with that said, I’ll do a little researching.

Deut 20:7 And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

Now, here it is asked, (paraphrased) who is the man who is engaged (has betrothed) a wife, to be, but hasn’t married her, he should go back home and marry her, lest he die in battle before he marries and has a child.

This clearly states that the betrothed is a wife before they are married.

Deut 22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman ….married to an husband,…. then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23. If a damsel that is a ….virgin be betrothed unto an husband,…. and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
V-24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
V-25 But if a man find a ….betrothed damsel…. in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die
V- 27. For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

.This makes it clear that a betrothed woman is his wife, but not in the same sense as we use today. When they are married, she remains his wife, but the partnership is completed, and she becomes a ….“married wife.”….

This same term is used in Isaiah.

.Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of ….the married wife,…. saith the Lord.

So, back to your question. What is your understanding of the difference between betrothed and marriage?… Betrothed is one who is committed to marriage, and is called the man’s wife, but she is not a married wife, until it has been completed legally by the authorities.

Question #2, Do you believe that the first comes before the second, and carries the full responsibilities of marriage without the benefits of consummation, as is consistent with Jewish tradition of the time?

Yes, short of living together, and her cooking his meals and tucking him in at night. Lol

Question #3, If Joseph and Mary were ever more then betrothed, were (they) ever married, why is this not mentioned in scripture?

But, it is mentioned in scripture, as we learned from before, a woman was betrothed and considered a wife at the same time, the difference was that they could not consumate the marriage until they had taken the final step of marriage.

In Israel, there were two phases to becoming married,
Phase #1, our word betrothed, was called erusin, or Kiddushin,
Phase #2 was called “nesuin,” which was the finalizing act of the marriage ceremony.

Deut 20:7 And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

Here is a situation where a man has betrothed a wife, but has not gone to phase # 2 of the marriage. It is suggested he go back home and (taken) her, take her, took her, all meaning the same thing when used in the context of marriage..

Now notice Mt 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Joseph took unto him his wife, that was phase #2, marriage, complete except for the physical consummation, with “took” being the marriage word.

Took her, as one took in marriage, Deut 24:3, and Luke 20:30

Taken her, as to take in marriage, Deut 20:7, and Gen 12:19 and 20:7

Take her as in marriage, Deut 27:7, and Deut 25:5

This conclusively proves that Joseph and Mary were legally married.

Question # 4, When were all of Mary’s additional children supposed to have been born?

Quite possibly all were born by the time Jesus was 12 years old, but it could have been a few years longer. Remember, since God used her womb to bring the Savior to us, God surly left Mary in better physical condition then when he found her.

Question # 5, Why does Luke 2 make no mention of other small children in the account of the journey to Jerusalem when Jesus was 12?

The fact that there is no mention of small children is not the uncommon thing but the common, and would have been rare indeed if they had been mentioned.

Throughout the Bible, there is never an emphasis put on any child under the age of seventeen with the exception of course of Joseph being 17, and David was considered a child, and Jesus of course, but nowhere does the Bible elude to the image of little children running around that I can recall,

Just how would you suggest that the Holy Spirit or Matthew could have brought small children into the scripture, since they were never talked about until they were considered responsible?

Matthew and Luke had both made it a point to give all the names of Jesus brothers, and to mention he had two sisters, don’t you feel they thought this was plain enough for anyone to understand, and for the first time in the Bible, all their names are given, even though I can never recall that happening anywhere before, that a whole family is named before any of them had made a significant contribution to the Bible.

Question #6, And why would Christ commend Mary to the care of John from the cross if she had other children whose place it would have been to care for her on the death of her only son?

I’m sure you meant on the death of her oldest son rather then only son, but the reason is clear,

Mt 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. V-48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? V-49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! V-50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Jesus put his money where his mouth was. He had told them that a spiritual brother was even more of a true brother then a blood brother, such as James, who wasn’t a believer at that time, but it looks as though that may have changed shortly afterwards since the apostle Paul said that Christ saw James alone 1 Cor 15:7, and this was quite possibly when James gave his life to his Lord.

Question #7, Why is the burden of proof in this discussion on those who believe that Mary remained ever-virgin, when Scripture does not state that she bore additional children?

But it does state she had additional children, when in Mt 13 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? V-55 And his sisters, are they not all with us? V-56

If this is not a clear referral to the whole family of Joseph and Mary I don’t know what could be.

And, if this wasn’t enough, it was repeated in Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Regardless of whether John Mark wrote this from memory with the Holy Spirit or if he peeked over Matthew’s shoulder, it is clear that it is written differently enough that some thought had to go into it, and we know he would not have repeated this false hood of Matthew’s if he had know it to be untrue now would he?

Some make the claim there was no Greek word for cousin, but in Acts 23:16, Paul had no problem distinguishing between a cousin and a brother now did he? V-16. And when Paul's sister's son heard of their lying in wait, he went and entered into the castle, and told Paul.

Here again, is the opportunity to distance himself from his so called cousins, and Matthew or the Holy Spirit could have done so easily at this time, but Christ doesn’t question the one who went to the door, the door man ID’d them as his brethern, and Christ even repeated it, a second time.

When Christ said these are my brethern,
V-49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Jesus was saying that the spiritual bond between a brother who shares God’s Spirit is closer then these my blood brothers, and would it have made sense if Jesus had said, these my spiritual brothers that my Father has given me, and they are so much a part of me they are like a distant relative…. NOT!…He was demonstrating a closeness of a blood brother, a mother and sisters.

Question # 8, Why don’t the two sides here agree that the sources we are examining provide no definitive proof?

Well, it’s because I see no proof of your claims what so ever, not one. When I do a long research on a subject, many times I find things that disagree with the point I am trying to make, and I have to work out these discrepancies before I can put all the facts together and sum up what I’ve found, but I’ll be completely honest, other then when I thought the term “wife” meant they were married, and then found out that a betrothed is a wife, and when they marry she is still a wife, but a married wife, this was the only problem I encountered.

When all the research and debating is done, there is one thing to remember, there is one truth on the matter, and only one, either Mary remained childless after Jesus, or she didn’t, there is no compromising on the truth.

Unless you can show more scripture to support your belief, then I have to support what I see as the truth, then you have no leg to stand on. Every statement must be disproved before you have a case. JH