Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Jesus disagrees with you
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WHOA! A hit-and-run by the the vicar of Pope JP II, presently disguised as the vicar and spokesman for Jesus !! : )
Interesting, 'cos I could've sworn that He said that His kingdom is not of this world....and what you guys have going is definitely a kingdom rather than a church (Gk. "a called-out assembly"). Don't you claim that the pope has jurisdiction over all governments? Sounds like an earthly kingdom to me...NOTHING like the first century church...
Yeah, because the average Joe Sixpack, living in the 4th century and asuming he could read in the first place, could just go on down to the corner Barnes and Noble and go get his very own inexpensive copy of the Bible with Christ's words in red. If it weren't for that evil Catholic Church, that is. (/sarcasm OFF!)
You also seem to be ignorant of the fact that the Scriptures have, since day one, had a very prominent place in the Christian Liturgy. Joe Sixpack wasn't as ignorant of the Scriptures as you think.
Of the theologians and priests who did have access to the scriptures and who came to realize that the church was in need of reform in order to harmonize with the scriptures, and who were subsequently excommunicated (and who knows what else done to them), how many have we heard about?
None, because your mythical proto-Protestants never existed in the first place. We have some primary sources of the heretic's writings and we have a myriad of secondary sources which are the writings of the Fathers and the teachings of the Councils contra the heretics of the day. Between those two, an excellent record has been established of what the Church believed and what the heretics, and make no mistake about it, that's what they were in the truest sense of the word, believed.
I would imagine that the RCC knows how to cover its tracks pretty well, even back then.
I know that it's hard having the entire weight of early Christian history against you, but you make it even more painful for yourself when you engage in flights of fantasy.
Pray for John Paul II
I daresay NEVER would anyone ever come up with this interpretation or application without help from the Roman Catholic Church!
Ditto #7624. Quite a stretch.
Oh please. You really believe that he could study scripture in "the liturgy"?
Between those two, an excellent record has been established of what the Church believed and what the heretics, and make no mistake about it, that's what they were in the truest sense of the word, believed.
"An excellent record" of all disagreements and punishments? Sure, dignan3. You go ahead and believe that everyone who had access to the Scriptures was in agreement with THE church's teachings, except for a few heretics. Believe what you want to believe.
Everything we experience in this awesome kosmos that can't be put into words.
It is helpful to have a book about trees. But it is still not quite the same as a tree.
In the Farewell Discourse of the Gospel of John, Jesus tells his disciples that it is better that He goes away. Why on earth would it be better for Him to go away? Because, when He goes away the Holy Spirit comes. Not the church. Jesus agrees with us. So there ;-)
But, though it took some teeth-pulling, y'all finally admitted that your Traditional doctrines have developed (with corresponding effects on the Church). In addition, the Roman Catholic Church was not set in stone and fully developed hierarchically (let alone doctrinally) by the time of the completion of the NT. So the predating argument lacks force (even assuming that the RCC is the "church" of Mt. 16:18).
But a book about trees is a lot better than a council convened to tell us what trees are :)
Kingdom is God's rule and reign. As such, it is manifested in the life of the believer and, consequently, to the world at large. We want God to rule and reign on the earth just like He does in Heaven. We want his power and glory to be exhibited on earth just as it is exhibited in Heaven. We know that cannot fully happen (anymore than we can be perfect on this earth), but it is what we strive for nevertheless.
We are to "seek first His kingdom and His righteousness." Mt. 6:33 What is the object of our seeking? Church? Heaven? Nope. We are to seek His rule and reign in our lives.
Of course, every time a Catholic reads the words Kingdom in the Bible they think of the RCC. Cept those troublesome times that it doesn't really fit a church. Like when Jesus cast out demons and said that was evidence of the presence of the Kingdom (interested how y'all can twist that one to fit Kingdom=Church). Jesus also said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think there's many Catholic churches turning away millionaires. ;-) Finally, as Jesus was leaving Galilee for the last time, he sent 70 disciples to preach. He told them, "Heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come to you.'" Luke 10:9 Doesn't sound like the church to me :-)
Good catch, bass!
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