Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Maybe you're on to something there...:o)
Advertisements we'll never see....
I know, I know....way too much time on my hands...this is a joke!!
Yes. As Jesus Christ prayed (John 17) to His Father before His crucifixion: "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent... I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy word... for the words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them, and they received them... I have given them Thy word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world... Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth... And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth..."
or can it, must it, be admitted that Christ gave to His Apostles to be transmitted to His Church, that the Apostles received either from the very lips of Jesus or from inspiration or Revelation, Divine instructions which they transmitted to the Church and which were not committed to the inspired writings?
No, no such thing "can," "must" be admitted. All divine instruction was committed to writing, as this is the way it had always been ordered by God.
Catholics... hold that there must of necessity be certain revealed truths apart from those contained in the Bible.
OH? Exactly what did God leave out that catholics say are necessary?
...they hold furthermore that Jesus Christ has established... a living organ as much to transmit Scripture and written Revelation as to place revealed truth within reach of everyone always and everywhere.
And this "living organ" they call the catholic church. According to God's word, the living organ who reveals truth is the Holy Spirit, not a visible, hierarchal church. "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God... We have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor. 2:16
(Roman catholic church, get over yourself.)
And why does this extra-scriptural revelation contradict written scripture? How can God be inconsistent?
Seems pretty plain to me....
. They look to flesh for their teaching rather than God. To them, the revelation of God is found in the wisdom of man.
Our claim is that there are some doctrines which have as their source the oral teachings of Christ and the Apostles rather than the Scriptures. You claim that these don't exist. Your logic reduces to this syllogism:
All Christian doctrine is contained in the Bible
Doctrine "x" is not contained in the Bible
Therefore, Doctrine"X" is not Christian.
My objection is that your major premise is not contained in the Bible.
Doctrine "x" is not contained in the Bible
Therefore, Doctrine "x" is not Christian.
And why is that a problem for you? That is PRECISELY what we believe! The logic is flawless!
Seems like the Catholic Church uses this one:
Doctrine "x" is not in the Bible
The Pope (who is infallible) says he believes Doctrine "x" is Christian
Therefore, Doctrine "x" is Christian
Yes. As Jesus Christ prayed (John 17) to His Father before His crucifixion: "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent... I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy word... for the words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them, and they received them... I have given them Thy word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world... Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth... And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth..."
He doesn't say that the word is only what is in writing. If he meant that, then he would have written a book.
He did...it's called the Bible. Jesus is the very personification of the Word.
Can't say I've had any major changes of belief. It has been enlightening to see others explain their beliefs in detail. This has been more of a way to sharpen my own reasoning ability, especially when explaining what I believe or taking someone else to task for what they believe. I'd like to think I've made some friends on this thread, even of those I've had serious disagreement with.
Seems pretty plain to me....
Yes, to me, too. But "plain and simple" is not attractive to them. They revel in pomp and complexity. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, but the kingdom of catholicism is. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. The Lord knows the reasonings of the 'wise', that they are useless." (1 Cor. 3)
Sounds a bit like transubstantiation in reverse: Jesus changed himself into paper/parchment.
But Robby, neither is yours! It doesn't take a whole lot of smarts to realize that God should be, must be, and is consistent with Himself. Otherwise, His Word is meaningless! Wouldn't you agree that it must be so? The exact words of our major premise may not be stated in just so many words in the Bible, but the principle is in there. It's funny that you should appeal to the Bible, even in a negative way, to try to establish your premise. Seems that you'll appeal to the Bible when you think it proves your point, and to Church Tradition when it is at variance with scripture. That's not very consistent, except that you do that every time you're challenged..
Does being obtuse and contrary come naturally to you, or do you have to work at it?
You know full well what John 1:14 says: "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..."
And just for the record, transubstantiation is not a Christian doctrine.
I'm all too aware of what your objection is. I believe my major premise IS in the Bible, but tell me, when did you begin judging something's validity by whether or not it's in the Bible?
Our claim is that there are some doctrines which have as their source the oral teachings of Christ and the Apostles rather than the Scriptures.
MOST, if not ALL, doctrines have the oral teachings of Christ and the Apostles (who received them from Christ, AND from the Holy Spirit when writing scripture) as their source. No argument from me here!
-- Hopefulpilgrim
Give us an example of His word that is NOT in scripture.
-- Hopefulpilgrim
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