The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[dignan3]

Don't confuse NATE4"ONE NATION" with the facts, his mind is already made up!

Now you know how us Catholics feel sometimes. :>)

Pray for John Paul II

[the808bass]

Hope is on the horizon. Light at the end of the tunnel. Hope it's not another train :)

[Iowegian]

To judge Paul by those standards is to do him a dis-service. In his day, that was normal and right. We must view things in their proper historical contect if we hope to learn from them.

I totally agree. Now getting Old Reggie to understand is another matter.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But seriously, many women have been forced to change their proper role to a different role because men refuse to fulfill their God-given responsiblities in their families and church. Sad, but true.

Have you opened a can of worms!!!!

Actually I agree 110% that women have changed their God- given place. But I do not (in most cases) blame men for the change because they have refused to fulfill their places.

The blame lies with both husband and wife for wanting everything right now, so they buy everything on credit which forces mom's to work. They do it in the name of "giving their kids everything, makeing their lives better" but IMO that is a crock. Kids are better when they have parents who raise them rather then school and day care.

For the life of me I do not understand how things got to where people think women who stay home and be wife and mother are not worth anything. These are our children we are talking about, who did not ask to be here, and deserve better then being stuck in day care so mom can persue a career and drive a new car.

I really can get on a soap box on this subject, sorry:)

As far as being submissive to a husband, there has to be a final authority. In the OT when Jacob was thinking of leaving Laban's house he talked it over with his wives, Rachel and Leah, then made a decision keeping what they said in mind. That is how it should work. Also, the bible never says that a women has to love her husband, but husbands should love their wives. Husbands need to keep in mind 1 Cor. 13. If husbands do that, I don't believe any women would have trouble being submissive, or in fact then loving their husband. You have to look at the whole picture, read ALL the instructions:)

I'm done now:)

Becky

[PoorMuttly]

I have, but I probably shouldn't admit it. Ooooooooooo...

[PoorMuttly]

Re: PoorMuttly's graduation photo.

'wish I could get it to move like that on my Drivers License!

[OLD REGGIE]

Now clearly, they have a different view of the role of women in society than the modern American does, but why are you correcting the apostles rather than learning from their teachings? Are Peter and Paul sexists because they don't tell the women to stand up to men and dump off the kids every day and go out and make a seperate identity for themselves by getting a job away from home? Society and the church would function much better if we would all take their words to heart and follow them. Boy I hope my wife doesn't read this :-)

But seriously, many women have been forced to change their proper role to a different role because men refuse to fulfill their God-given responsiblities in their families and church. Sad, but true.

You have an excellent argument. I agree wholeheartedly our cultural mindset is vastly different than at the time of Peter and Paul. I, too, believe in a culture where the first job of the woman is to raise her children. My wife was a stay-at-home mother and both of my daughters are stay-at-home mothers. They are fortunate in that they can afford to do so. We, in my generation, could afford to do so, probably because we settled for less material things and probably because we had no choice. Not all working mothers do so by choice. They are forced to do so just to pay the bills. Let's not make the mistake of "dumping" all working mothers in one bucket.

Let me add the next verse to your selection from 1 Peter 3:

7 Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered.

This compares to:

Galations 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

How many times does Paul give equality (ie. "all one") to women?

Peter speaks of women with gentleness and love, Paul, on the other hand, seems to think of women as a (not so necessary) evil. I believe Paul realy, truly thought the end time was so near that women weren't necessary anymore.

1 Corinthians 7:

29 I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none,

30 and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods,
31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away.
32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord;
33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
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Nowhere does Peter say anything comparable to this:

1 1 Timothy 2:

[13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
[14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
[15] Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. What do you believe Paul is saying here?
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My personal opinion of Paul is unchanged. When he is speaking for the Lord it is inspired Scripture. When he is voicing his own opinion it is just that , and binding on no one.

And there is no Scriptural prohibition to women in the Clergy.

I am not a "feminist", I am not a "feminazi", I am not a "male pig", I am a "peopleist". We are all the same. We are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. "We are all one in Christ Jesus."

[OLD REGGIE]

To judge Paul by those standards is to do him a dis-service. In his day, that was normal and right. We must view things in their proper historical contect if we hope to learn from them.

Paul was not your average - normal person. Even in his time he was "different".

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

We, in my generation, could afford to do so, probably because we settled for less material things and probably because we had no choice.

This generation could too, if mom and dad weren't so materialistic. You would be surprised how little it takes for a family of four to live on when you main objective is for mom to stay at home with the kids. And you can have alot of fun on very little.

Society has been brainwashed into believeing that if you don't give your kids EVERYTHING they will not be happy, that includes big houses, new cars, $100 shoes, and t-shirts, etc. Kids only care about that crap because they have been told it is important. If they don't have it, and it is not made a big deal of at home, they won't care. I think, no, I know, it is because MOM AND DAD want this stuff, can't do without it, more then that they are doing it for their kids. It makes them feel they are being good parents but in actuality it relieves the guilt of not being there for their kids.

Becky

[Iowegian]

We are all the same. We are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. "We are all one in Christ Jesus."

Well, I was with you most of the way. Until you made this statement. I believe this is your point of misunderstanding about Peter and Paul's point of reference. There is a big difference between saying "we are all the same" and saying "we are all equal" or "we are all one in Christ Jesus". Men and women aren't the same , but we are equal in the eyes of God and we are one in the faith. Again you are making the feminists argument that unless we all act the same and do the same things (like being a pastor or priest) we are not equal. God didn't create us that way. Just as he created the various parts of the body with different gifts to fit together like a giant puzzle, he also made men and women different- but equal.

As for Paul, you ignore all the women he spoke of and used in his ministry. He did believe women had an important role in the church and his example shows us how we should also.

[OLD REGGIE]

I totally agree. Now getting Old Reggie to understand is another matter.

One word change.

I totally agree. Now getting Old Reggie to understand agree is another matter.

[OLD REGGIE]

This generation could too, if mom and dad weren't so materialistic. You would be surprised how little it takes for a family of four to live on when you main objective is for mom to stay at home with the kids. And you can have alot of fun on very little.

Of course you are right. It seems though, that it is very difficult for those who don't live out in the "country". It is sad but peer pressure on the kids is very difficult to accomodate.

Do I remember you saying you home schooled your children? Maybe that's the way to go.

[Iowegian]

Becky, I am in total agreement with you about this. My lovely wife quit working right before our first child was born and she didn't go back to work until the third (and last) child went to school, and then she went to work part-time at her elementary school so she could be as close as possible to her and be off work when the kids were out of school. The good Lord worked everything out for us and every material sacrifice we endured was worth it. We now have two adult young men who love the Lord and have never given us any real problems. They work hard, get good grades in school and we have a great relationship with them (very close).

I say all this not to boast, but to tell others that all things are possible with God. Don't believe those who say it can't be done. (The last part is not for you Becky, I'm sure you already know this.)

[Iowegian]

I totally agree. Now getting Old Reggie to understand agree is another matter.

LOL OK sir, you understand, but don't agree.

[Iowegian]

"Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty." What do you believe Paul is saying here?

I would tell you, but given your low opinion of Paul, you won't like it. LOL

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

And there is no Scriptural prohibition to women in the Clergy

How can a woman be the husband of one wife?

Becky

[Iowegian]

How can a woman be the husband of one wife?

It depends, if she's from Vermont it's possible. :-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

peer pressure on the kids is very difficult to accomodate.

Do I remember you saying you home schooled your children? Maybe that's the way to go

Yes I homeschooled, and that is in my opinion how you control peer pressure. It is also what God wants us to do, teach our own children.

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

If we find ourselves inward/self-focused, we should take this as guidance that more growth should come.

I've been contemplating this statement for hours. It is profound. Thanks. You have voiced a "feeling" of mine but one which I haven't been able to verbalize.

[OLD REGGIE]

How can a woman be the husband of one wife?

My RC friends told me "Paul didn't really mean that".

I told you Paul had some strange ideas anyway.

1 Tim.3:

[1] The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task.
[2] Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher,

I seriously think Paul was, once again, stating a personal view. I think it is qualified by The saying is sure: