The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[RobbyS]

Rocky's punch was something awesome. I remember a foto of his landing a punch on some fighter's jaw. Was it Walcott or Moore? Anyway, his reflexes must have been as quick as Ali's. He could take a punch as well. I think I would have to have had a baseball bat to knock him out, even if he just stood there and let me hit him.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Sure Havoc. I knew there was a good reason I don’t listen to you anymore.

For not listening to him anymore you sure do respond to him alot.

[RobbyS]

Where do I get a copy of THIS Jesus!

[Havoc]

That was before Jesus wasn't it? And here I thought Jesus had something to do with changing death into life.

That's a bit of a misconstruction. He allowed for turning from spiritual death to spiritual life - not from spiritual death to physical life. Yeah, read it again. Dead in the flesh means 'now of the spiritual.' When Adam was kicked out of Eden, the spiritual was forbidden him save through provision of God. That is the reason for the Judaic law prohibiting communion with the dead. It is a vilation of God's rules. Ya'll not only ignore the law, you don't know why it's there.

[SoothingDave]

Jesus didn't change death into life for those after his crucification, but for EVERYONE for all time, past and present. Read Hebrews. Particularly the chapter about faith.

I fully understand the salvation offered to the Jews before Christ came and the limbo of the fathers, etc. My point is that now that the Christ is a fait accompli the gates of Heaven are open. People die and they go to God.

Many would have them go to sleep and wait until the second coming. I don't buy that. Heaven is populated. Right now.

"Making images of God and his people is another."

Scripture and verse please?

Are you against images of Jesus?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Bring it! I have friends. And my pope can beat up your ... er .... whatever you call him. ;o)

Jesus Christ. Do you still think so?

[RobbyS]

When we pray to the Saints, we don't try to conjour them up. The Church is not into spiritualism.

[JohnnyM]

"Making images of God and his people is another."
Scripture and verse please?

"Are you against images of Jesus?"

That wasn't my question so please dont try misdirection, just answer the question. Also you stated his people. Jesus is one thing, his people are quite another.

JM

[SoothingDave]

Where do I get a copy of THIS Jesus!

From here: http://store.yahoo.com/jsbstash/budchrisdass1.html

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In Kevin Smith's Movie "Dogma," (Protested by the Catholic League, but a very funny, and vulgur, movie nonethless. I wouldn't rely on it for accurate theology, but who would do that to any movie?) George Carlin plays a sappy "Spirit of Vatican II" Bishop who unveils his new marketing program to get more people into the Church. It's called "Catholicism -- WOW!" and features none other than a new image of Catholicism -- Buddy Christ.

SD

[SoothingDave]

He allowed for turning from spiritual death to spiritual life - not from spiritual death to physical life.

What are you talking about? You don't believe in a physical resurrection?

SD

[RobbyS]

I think I will get one, even if it does out pennies's in Kevin Smith's pocket. Oh his movies are OK; It's just HIM I can't stand!

[SoothingDave]

Since Jesus became Incarnate it is entirely valid to make representations of Him. Of course we don't pray to his statues, we use them to direct our thoughts to the real Him.

(If you need chapter and verse for the Incarnation, let me know. If you can't draw conclusions that since God was here in the flesh, He wanted us to see Him and wouldn't mind others seeing Him in representational form, I can't help you.)

As for statues of saints, when you understand how we use them, to focus our mind on the person being remembered, to teach us about the lives of those who went before us, who can see any wrong in that?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Well, does the prohibition extend to Jesus? I have seen statues of Jesus even in Fundie land.

I know I live in Catholic country (Massachusetts) but I have never seen a statue of Jesus on private land. I see many, many statues of Mary though. Why? Is Mary more important than Jesus?

[JohnnyM]

"who can see any wrong in that?"

All well and good, but if you have a commandmant or law that says its a no-no, then there better be something more than good intentions backing up your claim.

JM

[SoothingDave]

The commandment is against worshipping idols. Since nobody's doing that, it shouldn't be a problem.

SD

[RobbyS]

#715 So it DOESN"T extend to Jesus, even thou the Jews were adamant about no statues of Yahweh in the temple!(Surprising both Alexander and Pompey, I think)

[OLD REGGIE]

We accept all ancient writings for their historical value, whether we consider them infallible or not. Even the writings of the pagans and Gnostics are of historical interest to us. Sometimes you can see what the Church stood for by seeing what she opposed. As for the early churchmen, they all had to have their writings scrutinized by their colleagues. Some, like Ignatius and Irenaeus, withstood the scrutiny very well. Others, like Origen, not so well.

Forgive me if I say you sift out what you (the Church ie.) agree with and ignore the rest. Please tell, do you, or do you not, accept all the writings of St. Augustine?

[JohnnyM]

I thought your argument was that since Jesus came it was now lawful to make images of Him and His people?? If that is indeed your argument, then that implies that it was not legal prior to His coming. Now you say it was legal before he came. Did you mispeak???

JM