Can't We All Just Get Along?
Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Samuel, Samuel, Samuel. Here it is, Samuel. Yep. That was before Jesus wasn't it? And here I thought Jesus had something to do with changing death into life.
SD
The Fathers also point out that any attempt to make an image of the unseen God before the Incarnation would necessarily be false. Things changed with the Incarnation: God took on humanity, and with it depictability; God also entered into matter in a new way in the Incarnation. To deny the appropriateness of the Holy Icons ultimately always comes down to a doubt about the reality of the Incarnation. Once one depicts Christ, what argument is there against depicting His Mother, and his friends, the saints? Do you oppose all representational art as do strict Muslims?
As to the honor shown to the Holy Icons. The Fathers point out that the honor shown an image is actually honor directed toward the prototype (another reason idols are wicked--either their prototype is something dishonorable, a beast or demon, or nonexistent). We do the same with symbols, we salute the flag, and are angry when people desecrate it.
There is a wonderful story about on of the saints who opposed the iconocasts (an Emperor of your opinion). The Emperor argued with the saint (a monk) that the honor shown an icon was honor directed at the matter, not at the prototype. The monk took a coin with the Emperor's portrait on the obverse, threw it on the ground and ground it into the stones with his heel. The Emperor was outraged and sent the monk to eternal glory as a holy martyr.
Where in the Law does it say 'except they be in a certain place'? Right, it doesn't. Furthermore, you don't know where they are - OOPS. Just kills your protest there flatly. The Law says no speaking to dead people [(period) end of statement]. No exceptions. No 'if you eat your dinner we'll see' parachutes for you. Praying to dead people is a flat bold violation of God's law.
Now, the Jews know this. The Christians know this. And the Protestants know this. Why is it that Catholics don't. Or is it that Catholics don't care or think that their clergy has some spiritual right that even Jesus didn't have to Contravene scripture. Even Jesus recognized that the law was from God. Do Catholics not recognize the Law?
Nobody is "conjuring" up anyone. We are merely imploring our friends for their assistance. Now if you think they are "dead" dead and "waiting" for the resurrection to occur that is one argument to make. I believe that God, being timeless, is with the Resurrected today. Whatever "today" means to God.
SD
Your fellow Protestant with the two-gods doctrine would certainly agree with that.
allend, I think it was very disingenuous of you to Copy and Paste a section out of my post by stopping on a "coma", and not putting in the whole thought.
As you know, this makes it say what you want it to say, and not what I meant it to say, since it didn’t complete the thought.
Here it is again with proper punctuations that will make it easier for you to understand.
I had in mind that I would find several dozen scriptures stating that this person could, "interpret the word," or several dozen saying "the Spirit speaks as one voice," or that it is always "love", or "gives wisdom" or "faith" or "meekness" or so on, and I reasoned that by categorizing all of them, I would then be able to see how it manifested it’s self in us.
Second, in asking the intercessions of the saints who are alive in Christ the Orthodox do not "call them up" (we are not trying to get a ghost to appear) nor do we engage in divination (we don't expect the saint to tell us the future, just pray with us to God).
Oh sorry. We'll just ignore that part of the Bible too. Like Matthew 1;24 & 25. Sorry to bother ya with scripture.
Can't We All Just Get Along?
Once you understand that, I guess you object to talking to the dead, eh? Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah at His Transfiguration. Now Elijah was taken alive into heaven, so I guess he was (and is) still alive (even according to you--I know on the basis of Holy Tradition that he is). But Moses died. Thus Christ Himself provides and example of speaking to the dead, and are we not to imitate Christ in all things?
Steven, Steven, Steven. Certainly you can agree with me that some things changed when Jesus came to earth and sacrificed Himself? This is one of those things. Making images of God and his people is another. Moving the Sabbath to Sunday is another.
SD
Check this one out - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/549860/posts
SD
Sure Havoc. I knew there was a good reason I don’t listen to you anymore.
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