Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
You: No.
Scripture: Acts 5 - read it. These are Christians - saved people who over time sold all they had and lived as a community of Christians using the resources of one another to meet one another's needs. A couple from among this group of believers blasphemed the Holy Spirit and died for it. Scripture, not reason.
This has always bugged me.
The 2nd commandment precisely and exactly says:
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
This would seem to clearly rule out having a cross or a crucifix or anything else as a "symbol" of your faith. I have heard the following arguments:
"But we're not really worshipping the cross". That doesn't seem to matter. Thou shalt not make ANY graven image. When the Hebrews built the golden calf, they didn't really think that they were worshipping the calf, they were worshipping the God behind it.
Another argument: The 10 commandments don't apply to us. Even if you believe that, then what could be more in-your-face to God then doing this?
I think the prohibition is there partly because making an image or symbol limits the infinite nature of God.
General statement do not always include all the caveats.
Are there any 'caveats' to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis?
On the matter of spiritual vs. temporal authority, fair enough.
Of course! Constitutionally, everyone has the right to petition the government. From a general moral standpoint, you also have a right to make your voice heard.
Nay, shouldn't it demand that the gov't follow the dictates of God?
"Demand"? No. What consequence do you propose the Church institute should the state not acquiesce to the Church's demands?
States that impose "the dictates of God" on their citizens generally are not very pleasant places to live. Secular authority is of this world. The best we can hope for in terms of secular government is 'King Log'. It is utopian to suggest that the kingdom of God can be implemented in this world. We should continue to try to improve the world, but we should be under no illusions as to the likelihood of our success.
I began studying Judaism with this purpose in mind. I had no intention of becoming Jewish. But as I studied it, it struck a deep chord in me. I felt that God was calling me back to the faith of my ancestors. Ultimately, I resolved my problems with Christianity by rejecting its truth claims.
Since you're the first Jew I've ever engaged in significant religious conversation, you're going to have to answer my questions. :-)
What specifically do Jews deny about Christianity? That there was a Jesus? That he was the messiah?
Thanks for the answers!
No, they were worshipping it. It says that in the scripture. But let's address the verse you quote...
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Now, let's complete this verse with Exo 20:5 "thou shalt no bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord the God am a jealous God, ..."
It's pretty clear that God prohibits the making of images for the purpose of worhipping them.
I wish you'd stop making references to the Apocryphal like that, it hurts my feelings....(^g^)
I really wanted to know. Since IMRight is gone for awhile can somebody please tell me if the previously posted Boniface proclamation was ever a part of the Magisterium?
The Scripture does not say any of that. It merely says that they lied to the Holy Spirit and died. Personally I think that when Jesus mentioned about blaspheming the Holy Spirit that it could only be done with Jesus here physically. I do not believe that what Jesus was talking about can be done by us today, it could only be committed during His earthly ministry.
BTW, did you read my #6538? I would be interested in hearing what you think.
-ksen
LOLOLOL. Sorry, I think that jail ..there is no getting out of. But, I'm sure he's telling all those people with him that their time in purgatory(hell) is almost over because, afterall, he was a "pope" and infallible vicars of Christ just can't expound errors or go to hell..
God might say, "What part of ANY didn't you understand?"
God didn't say it was okay to make an image of something on earth, heaven or the water as long as you think you're worshipping me, he said "ANY".
In 20:5, he says "don't bow down before them" OR "worship them". I don't know about you, but I've seen plenty of Christians bowing down before a crucifix or a cross, or a picture of Jesus. The worshipping of the "image" of God or Christ is just as bad as worshipping to an idol because you are limiting the infinite to a picture or a symbol while you are trying to commune.
Fair enough. For those who are not, is there a qualitative difference between being in church vs. viewing the mass on TV? I have no point to make here, just curious.
Didn't you get your name from Pius IX, in his famous ======> "Quanto conficamur moerore," 1863: ................................
It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion
..............................
Tehillim (Psalm) 18:46 The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Saviour!
XeniaSt
What about Boniface saying "we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff"? Is this issue (what is necessary for salvation) not a matter of faith? Don't Catholics believe that the pope is protected from error in matters of faith and morals?
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