Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Just curious Dig. I was sprinkled as an infant in the catholic church and I was emerced as a non-catholic in my 20's. I know I'm ok but what about the numberous non-catholics on this thread that haven't never known infant sprinkling? Are they ok?
Hey wait a minute. I was born into the catholic church.
"Haven't never known"? I am afraid you lost me. Are you concerned about kids that only got sprinkled and wonder if they were really baptised? I'll answer that question. Either pouring water or immersion is a valid way to confeer the sacrament of Baptism.
SD
No prob. But when I'm no longer "Invincibly Ignorant" I'm worried Jim Rob is not gonna let me change my name again.
The minions at the Vatican are working furiously on a special exception for you. Maybe even get you a fancy certificate. :-)
SD
This is Steven. Can't believe you missed the announcement of my name change.
Each of the verses below prove that coincident with the filling of the Holy Ghost is tongues. So much so that tongues is the evidence to the Jews that this gift was given to the gentiles also. You quote verses where Paul is teaching to people that are speaking in tongues so much that it is disruptive, evidenceing what I believe that it was very common. I have only spoken once when I was filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost, not tongues, is what I emphacize. Why would you discourage anyone from seeking such a blessing? Simply on the basis of you saying it isn't necessary? Do we seek only what is necessary?
Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And it is also clear that unless the tongue is interpreted or understood by the hearers it is meaningless.
This I will answer with Pauls words for obvious contrast with your own judgement that they are somehow "meaningless".
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
I know you are rejecting it but that is the Scripture I am using I Co 13:8-10.
That passage says that prophecies, tongues, and knowledge(I understand that this is a type of Revelatory knowledge) will cease. In verse 9 paul says that "we know in part." That was true because they did not have the completed Scriptures yet. So the early church needed those gifts in order to know that what they had was truly from God. Now we can judge things against the Scriptures to know if they are from God or not.
Tongues is a wonderful blessing, and it amazes me that people are afraid of it. Jesus said that signs (including tongues) would follow them that believe, and in many places, those signs are happening. Why do Christians have such a hard time with the supernatural? We are recipients of the greatest miracle of all: salvation. God gives us His Holy spirit to empower us to be witnesses in both word and deed.
Those signs and were given as a proof that what they were doing was from God. I reiterate, now we have the completed Scriptures with which to prove ourselves against.
Jesus said "the works that I do shall ye do, and greater works than these, because I go to the Father". I don't know about you, but I seem to recall Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, fed 5000 with 1 basket lunch, etc. Have you done that? Have you laid hands on someone who is sick, and prayed that they be healed and then have seen it happen? What kind of works would be greater than these?
No I don't do those things. Instead I am concentrating on bringing the Gospel to the town I live in and the surrounding towns. To bring the Gospel to someone and see them accept Christ as their Saviour is the greatest kind of work.
Do you and your church do all of those things mentioned above? When was the the last time you witnessed someone raised from the dead? According to your point of view then we should be handling snakes and drinking poison at our worship services per Mark 16:18.
What works of God's power and miraculous things have you done?
Seeing one of my children (so far) come to know the Lord as her Saviour.
If you're not doing those things, then you are not even living up to the standard that Christ established while He was on earth, and He said we would do them!
Again, are you handling snakes, drinking poison and raising people from the dead? If not, then why not? doesn't Mark 16:18 say we should be doing those things?
Oh, I know...He was only speaking to the Disciples, and no one else...I've got news for you. Everything he taught and spoke was to them; We weren't there, yet every other thing Jesus spoke we take as applicable to us, EXCEPT His telling us that we will do the works He did, or any scripture that tells us about gifts of the Holy Spirit and their use. Where is the scripture that tells us that this is the way it is supposed to be? Why would the Church, the Body of Christ start off so powerfully and end so weakly?
When someone speaks in tongues are three people doing it and saying the same thing? Is there an interpreter? These were Scriptural procedures for tongues. Does your church follow these injunctions? If not, then why not?
Every instance in Scripture tongues is described as being understandable to people. On the day of Pentecost the multitude of Jewish people from all over the world heard the preaching in their own tongue. Whenever Jesus prayed He did it in a language that was recognizable to those around Him.
The miracle of Pentecost was not only that everyone could understand in their own language, it was also that God was speaking to the Jewish people in Gentile languages instead of Hebrew for the first time in their history.
Well, I've rambled on enough. I hope I've answered your questions.
-ksen
When some of you guys are still, after 8 months, under the notion that we worship Mary and that because we call her the Mother of God that that means we believe that she somehow created God, you tell me how fruitful a discussion would be regarding "Outside the Church there is no salvation".
After all explainations from us regarding what the Church teaches in totality, you will still hold to your preconcieved notions, no matter how much they conflict with reality. Sorry, it's just not worth the time or the energy.
Pray for JP II
This is not the only thing Paul wrote, either. You can't just isolate a text or several texts and present that as the whole. Any doctrine must fit with the whole of the revealed Word. Yes, it is possible to lose one's salvation, IF one WALKS AWAY from it deliberately. Slipping up and committing a sin doesn't fit into that catagory. If one is walking with the Lord, actively pursuing His will, praying, reading the Word, that person is not turning his back on God, and this scripture wouldn't apply. Or are you telling me that one can do all that, but one inadvertant sin negates it all?
There is a difference between accidental sin and deliberate sin, where one not only sins and knows it, but then actively pursues it. THAT is a deliberate turning from God. That is what Paul is talking about here. But you want to stretch it to cover every sin, every time, all the time. Have you ever accidentally sinned? Meaning that you did it in the heat of the moment, not with deliberate planning to do so? Go back and read all of Romans, and all of Galatians. Realize that as true Christians, we are IN CHRIST, dead to sin, and alive to God. We still inhabit bodies that are capable of sin, because they haven't been redeemed yet. Our lives are hidden with Christ in God. Now in the sweet by and by, but right now! Today! As I write this! My sins are covered, every one of them. I do my best to obey His Word, to live for Him, to walk worthy of the calling, but I don't do it under my own power, I do it through Christ, who strengthens me. If I stumble, He is there to hold me up, not to slap me down.
You guys are way too hung up on "saying the right words", and railing against the evils of sin to people who are already saved. I got saved without "saying the words" (the sinner's prayer). Let me tell you how it happend: For some time before, God had been drawing me to Him, making me aware of His love for me. When it happened, I had walked into a Catholic Chapel on the Kent State campus (Newman Chapel, I believe)with some friends. As I stood at the end of the main aisle, up over the altar was a life-size, full color, detailed Crucifix. The sight of that was as if I was seeing the real thing, and it affected me so deeply that as I reached the front, I dropped to my knees and couldn't even speak. All I could see was that Crucifix, and be aware of what Jesus had done for me. I didn't "say the words" out loud, or in my mind either, but when I was finally able to stand again, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus had entered my heart, washed me and cleansed me from my sins, and placed the love of God in my heart. I was a changed man from that day forward. Yes, I have stumbled, and I have even backslid, but I have never lost that memory of that moment, and it is what always brings me back. I have never doubted for a minute that God loves me, He keeps me, and that He will not let me be lost. it is not up to me, it's up to Him. Even when I was backslidden, I knew that God had His hand on my life. He was so patient with me, so loving and tender with my hurting heart. The reasons for my backsliding aren't important, the fact that He brought me back is.
Like I said, all who have been validly Baptized are members of the Body of Christ. Protestants who baptize under the Trinitarian formula confer valid baptisms.
Pray for John Paul II
Whew. (I meant to say "have never known". Ya nitpicker
Sounds like an apology to everyone except Reggie.
Could you expand on this a bit? Are you talking about denomination?
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