Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree. Only by ignoring God's promises for justification, sealing, and keeping; can the doctrine of conditional salvation be professed.
BigMack
That should be Duh! Lol (^g^)
God's protection extends so long as we keep the faith. You want an absolute, I'll give you one. If you keep the faith, you'll spend eternity with the Lord. That is what Paul preached. And that is my testimony. But true sheep have many promises so long as they remain true. Among those promises are eternal life, and to not be led astray by the Lord. Keep to him and your path will be straight, in other words. Turn from him and go back to your old ways of carnal sin in unrepentance and you have no promise. Many will stand before Him saying that they have cast out demons in His name, won souls, etc. But if they turned from him and denied him, he'll deny them. This is not the testimony of one who is saved at death. This is the testimony of one who thought he was saved because he did what he wanted and expected God to honor it. This fits the mold of the saved walking in the flesh and those who turned from Him. Keep the faith.
The only thing worse than your logic is your manners.
BigMack
Can this be repeated on a rosary bead?
What about great Christian leaders or workers who appear to be saved, but reject their faith and walk away from the Lord Jesus? Is this not an example of someone forfeiting their salvation they once possessed?
The Bible answers this question and says that person was never saved in the first place. The proof is the fact they left the Lord Jesus Christ.
John writes: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that anti-christ shall come, even now are there many anti-christs; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:18,19).
BigMack
That kind of language is beneath you.
6348 posted on 11/6/01 6:01 PM Central by Invincibly Ignorant
Yeah me to, your not the sorry SOB I've been telling every body you were. :)
BigMack
Who do those promises belong to? Read it. They belong to the obedient, correct? They belong to the faithful - to the repentant heart that seeks God. You act as though I just told you you can lose your salvation for a single sin that is repented from. Two people were put to death in the Bible for a single sin - physical and spiritual death. Satan was thrown down for one sin. Adam and Eve booted for one sin. Moses was taken for his sin. Is sin forgiveable, yes. But it is encumbent upon us to be repentant. Christians walking in the Spirit don't just go "oops" dawgone, how'd I go and do a silly thing like seducing that woman, taking her home and seducing her to my wife's bed while the kids were at school.. It's an act of rebellion and disobedience before God. It is forgiven in a repentant heart by God.
Are we to understand that you believe repentance is not required of God? Are we to understand that you think Sin can enter heaven? Are we to believe that 'keep yourselves from sin for you know not the hour of My return' is just baptist scare tactics? I'm literally all ears here, Gimme some real scripture to explain away the scripture. The Spirit in me says that He is forgiving; but, He is also Just. He is merciful; but, He must also be our Judge. He warns us time after time to be free from sin at his arrival. Jesus doesn't warn us of His forgiveness; but, of His Just nature.
Pour on the scriptures and lets examine them. For those of us in the Spirit, God has not given us a spirit of fear that we should walk around looking over our shoulders in fear of His Judgement. The Devil does that to his servants. If you are leading a Spiritual life following God, you've nothing to worry about. The path is narrow. Walk it and you're fine. I honestly don't see what your concern is about if you are following the Spirit of God. If that is your life, you have the promises to look forward to so long as you keep the faith as Paul said. What's the beef?
I'm speaking frankly and I approach God with a tender heart but in the same frank fashion. I owe Him much. I don't owe Him in backing down from His scriptures. And I will not. His words are hard and the path is hard. I'll not paint over it with lies and opinions. I have to state what is there. I don't find it useful to misapply promises to those whom they do not belong to. I also cannot disregard piles of content in favor of a possible reading of one passage - it all has to fit together and work together toward a unified picture. And that Paul said in I Timothy that he was ready, having kept the faith is not the statement of a Man led of the Spirit who believed it was all 100% garaunteed to him the moment he was saved. None of them had this approach. Their approach was to constantly exhort their bretheren to stay free of sin and refuse the temptations of the devil and the flesh. They warned of the imminent coming and warned us to be free of sin because of it. Not the words of men trying to tell us our walk is garaunteed just because we are saved. The walk is garaunteed by the walk, not the first step.
Again, I think you are missing the point. And I'll emphasize hopefully to make it: Getting saved does not make you one of His sheep.. What did he say:
" He that believeth" Stop. The next part is important. " AND is baptized [in the Spirit] shall be saved"
Now, what is a sheep? A sheep is a saved person who hears and follows/obeys Jesus. John 10.
Romans 8 again, not just verse 1, read the whole chapter. If you aren't following in the spirit, you aren't one of his. Does that mean you aren't saved, no. That means you aren't a sheep. To be a sheep, you have to be following. Now stop, back up, and read it again. One can be saved and not one of us; because being saved doesn't make you a sheep. Hearing and obeying/following does that. Being saved means you have been planted and now have a chance to learn and grow in faith. If you grow into a sheep, you've now got to keep the faith. If you are choked out by weeds of false doctrine, you've fallen away and are none of His. Salvation doesn't make us a sheep, it puts us on a growth path to becoming one. The seed that falls on the rocks represents those who reject the word and are not ever saved.
Does that make it clearer? Never forget the first lessens. They have bearing in growth.
Yes it is required.
Are we to understand that you think Sin can enter heaven?
No it cannot.
Are we to believe that 'keep yourselves from sin for you know not the hour of My return' is just baptist scare tactics?
No it is true.
What's the beef?
If I understand, you believe in conditional salvation. And you can add to what Christ has already done. Havoc I agree with you most of the time but not on this one, I know we will probably not change each others minds on this, we will just have to be like Fox News, we report you decide. I do respect your beliefs and your strong faith. Please forgive me if I'm not understanding you.
BigMack
I agree with the first part, but if your not following in the spirit, your not saved in the first place.
I gotta go to tues night outreach at our church, I will catch you later.
BigMack
Conditional salvation? Like, believe and be Baptized in the spirit and you are saved. Do x and y and result is z. That is actually conditional. But, I'm not certain what you mean by it.
And you can add to what Christ has already done.
Add to what Christ did. No. Works do not aid in salvation. Salvation is a free gift; but, salvation is not the end of it. The scriptures don't say that and I cannot. Being saved is important; but, unless you become a sheep, you've missed your inheritance. The sheep have the promise.
Havoc I agree with you most of the time but not on this one, I know we will probably not change each others minds on this, we will just have to be like Fox News, we report you decide. I do respect your beliefs and your strong faith. Please forgive me if I'm not understanding you.
Well, my exact point is that I don't think you are understanding me. I know what you've professed to date. And I think you are right on. But I think you are either over general or I'm over specific. But, I've tried to clear that up. Salvation is the key to the door; but, it's not ownership of the mansion. That has been purchased and paid for; but, we claim it by growing from salvation through teaching and the Spirit into Sheep and then keeping the faith. If we don't become sheep, we haven't yet become followers. And all the promises are for the sheep.
Isn't that a Kansas song?
An Introduction to New Testament Christology by Raymond Edward Brown
Brown was perhaps the greatest New Testament scholar of the 20th century.
Life of Christ by Fulton J. Sheen
Not a theological work of Christology per se, but one you should read.
Brown was perhaps the greatest New Testament scholar of the 20th century.
That may be, but since Fr. Brown was a Modernist, I will not look to him. Like I said, I don't want to spend money on crap. Sorry. :>(
Pray for John Paul II
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.