The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[pegleg]

So what's the big deal? There was false teaching back then. Things don't change much do they? I, with the help of the Holy Spirit (private interpretation)could have figured it out without the counsel convening.

Really. So the non Catholic Christians refuted it by telling everybody to just read your bible and the Holy Spirit will guide you? This is interesting since the NT Canon hadn’t been closed yet and the bible consisted of the OT. Any documentation to back this up or is this just a hunch?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

And as long as you and the Holy Spirit are OK, nothing else matters. This is the radical individualim of Protestantism that destroys the concept of Communion of the Saints.

There's plenty of communion of the Saints out here in flyover land.

OK, Steven, you and the Holy Spirit have a good thing going. What about the next new Christian who comes along? Maybe he ain't so good at figuring things out and might be susceptible to false teachers.

Why don't we just turn him over to guys so you can splain stuff like Matthew 1;25 to he or she. That won't work either. sorry.

Wouldn't it be a good thing, a Christian thing, to have prepared for this new Christian information about exactly what teachings are wrong, how to recognize them, and why they are wrong? Maybe even write this information down for use by future Christians?

Sure, but not the the contaminated stuff that lacks credibility.

Nope. Let them and the Holy Spirit figure it out anew.

Much better than lettin' you guys get to him first.

[SoothingDave]

Wouldn't it be a good thing, a Christian thing, to have prepared for this new Christian information about exactly what teachings are wrong, how to recognize them, and why they are wrong? Maybe even write this information down for use by future Christians?

Sure, but not the the contaminated stuff that lacks credibility.

If it is a good idea to write down "uncontaminated" Christian truth and understanding of various heresies one might encounter, to help other Christians now and in the future, why didn't your church do this for the first 1500 years it "existed"?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Can you imagine the state of flux involved in starting a new world-wide Church? Many things which the Spirit and Jesus revealed were not fully grasped at the time. The early church was going through an almost unimaginable period of growth. Only when the church was more fully established and settled was protocol likely to become an issue. While being persecuted by Jew and Roman there isn't a lot of time for establishing formailties.

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I can imagine many things but I can't imagine Paul ignoring Peter if he was the principle in Rome.

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Romans 16

1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen'chre-ae,

2 that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself as well.

3 Greet Prisca and Aq'uila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,

4 who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I but also all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks;

5 greet also the church in their house. Greet my beloved Epae'netus, who was the first convert in Asia for Christ.

6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard among you.

7 Greet Androni'cus and Ju'nias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

8 Greet Amplia'tus, my beloved in the Lord.

9 Greet Urba'nus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.

10 Greet Apel'les, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobu'lus.

11 Greet my kinsman Hero'dion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcis'sus.

12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphae'na and Trypho'sa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord.

13 Greet Rufus, eminent in the Lord, also his mother and mine.

14 Greet Asyn'critus, Phlegon, Hermes, Pat'robas, Hermas, and the brethren who are with them.

15 Greet Philol'ogus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olym'pas, and all the saints who are with them.

16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded.

19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil;

20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

21 Timothy, my fellow worker, greets you; so do Lucius and Jason and Sosip'ater, my kinsmen.

22 I Tertius, the writer of this letter, greet you in the Lord.

23 Ga'ius, who is host to me and to the whole church, greets you. Eras'tus, the city treasurer, and our brother Quartus, greet you.

24 25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages

26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith--

27 to the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

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So many people, and not one word of Peter. Could this be an oversight?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

If it is a good idea to write down "uncontaminated" Christian truth and understanding of various heresies one might encounter, to help other Christians now and in the future, why didn't your church do this for the first 1500 years it "existed"?

Maybe your church should have spent their time making sure as many people as possible had access to scripture instead of access to their interpretation of the scripture. Oh wait a minute. scripture isn't that important, I forgot.

[biblewonk]

Oh wait a minute. scripture isn't that important, I forgot.

Having not followed the conversation I can tell what kind of person you are talking to with that statement. :-)

I dont' think I like this new format. When this thread is 10,000 posts long how in the world do you quickly get to post number 5221?

[OLD REGGIE]

You Protestants keep saying that, but you can't document it. The best you guys could come up with was a statement by St. Augustine (4th century). Other than that, you just repeat that "all scripture is profitable" statement, which you try to interpret to get "scripture alone" out of it.
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O.K. call me "Protestant" if you want. I'll call you RC.

Here are just a few quotes. If you want more I'll be glad to provide them.

ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS (130-202)

We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel they truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith. (Adv. H. 3:1)

Read more diligently that gospel which is given to us by the apostles; and read more diligently the prophets, and you will find every action and the whole doctrine of our Lord preached in them. (Adv. H. 4:66)
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CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150?-213?)

They that are ready to spend their time in the best things will not give over seeking for truth until they have found the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves. (Stromata 7:16:3)
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ORIGEN (185?-252)

In which (the two Testaments) every word that appertains to God may be required and discussed; and all knowledge may be understood out of them. But if anything remain which the Holy Scripture does not determine, no other third Scripture ought to be received for authorizing any knowledge or doctrine; but that which remains we must commit to the fire, that is, we will reserve it for God. For in this present world God would not have us to know all things. (Orig. in Lev., hom. 5, 9:6)
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[Invincibly Ignorant]

Hey wonk.....How ya been my man?

[SoothingDave]

Maybe your church should have spent their time making sure as many people as possible had access to scripture instead of access to their interpretation of the scripture. Oh wait a minute. scripture isn't that important, I forgot.

Is that the long way of saying "I don't know"?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

That was real good stuff Reggie. But soon to be glossed over I'm sure.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Is that the long way of saying "I don't know"?

Naw there's much more in there than "I don't know". Take your time.

[SoothingDave]

Having not followed the conversation I can tell what kind of person you are talking to with that statement. :-)

You can also tell what kind of person is making such a statement.

I dont' think I like this new format. When this thread is 10,000 posts long how in the world do you quickly get to post number 5221?

Select "New Style" from the choices at the bottom of the screen. Then select "settings" from the bottom of the new style screen. It lets you select to have the posts broken up by 20, 50, 100, etc. posts per page.

Then you don't have to scroll through all thousands of posts.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Is that the long way of saying "I don't know"?

Naw there's much more in there than "I don't know". Take your time.

I know there's a lot in there about how poor my church is at teaching people what Scripture really means. But at least there is evidence of my church trying to do such things.

Which you yourself admitted was a good idea. Now where is the evidence of your church doing such things? It's almost like they didn't exist at all.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

The Pope was represented at this council and no decisions regarding faith and morals were approved without all the Bishops, in communion with the Pope, in agreement. So the church was willing to accept the help of an emperor, to listen to what he had to say, but not to accept the rule of an emperor in matters of faith. Constantine did not vote on anything during this council. And to summarize what the Church taught in matters of faith and morals all you have to do is read Creed of Nicea. This same creed is still recited today

Marvelous choice of words. So the Church was willing to accept "help" from the Emperor even though they had no choice. The Church was not in charge. The Emperor was, and Emperors would remain so for many years.

[SoothingDave]

O.K. call me "Protestant" if you want. I'll call you RC.

In the end, we get them all. Steven fought it for a long time too, but gave in at the end. :-)

Now the rest of your quotes are nice. You are perhaps under the illusion that Catholics don't think the Bible is the source for God's word and truth? It is.

Properly understood.

SD

[SoothingDave]

So the Church was willing to accept "help" from the Emperor even though they had no choice. The Church was not in charge. The Emperor was, and Emperors would remain so for many years.

And was not the Emperor made Emperor by God? Wasn't he used by God to accomlish great things? What about the Council or the creed exactly do you find not true? Or are we just shocked by the pedigree of its making?

SD

[dignan3]

So the church was willing to accept the help of an emperor, to listen to what he had to say, but not to accept the rule of an emperor in matters of faith. Constantine did not vote on anything during this council.

If I'm not mistaken, Constantine leaned toward the Arians before calling the Council of Nicaea. Obivously, the bishops didn't take that into account. God bless the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

Pray for the Servant of the Servants of God

[Invincibly Ignorant]

In the end, we get them all. Steven fought it for a long time too, but gave in at the end. :-)

Its the term they use for most non-catholics Reg. Just humor them Reg it allows you to move on to the next subject quicker. One less gnat to strain and one less camel to swallow. :-)