Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
"Keys" in the Bible (OT and NT - all references) confer some sort of authority or stewardship on the holder.
Why didn't Jesus give all the disciples the keys?
(What Havoc said -unedited version as quoted by Reggie) You haven't established in scripture that any man has been given the Place of Christ at the head of the Church in any capacity - regardless of what you wish to make it look as though Peter might be - or anyone else for that matter. Jesus didn't pick a successor because no one can succeed Him. He isn't dead. Long live the King!
So, Reggie, what is the difference? I have had about enough of you accuseing me of quoting out of context. What has changed? Havoc still said the same thing which implied that Catholics teach that Jesus has a "successor" and that He is dead. What is the big fat difference between the "full" quote you quoted and the "misleading" quote I quoted?
Does anyone else see? Can somebody help me?
(SD) This is making the implication that Catholics believe that Peter and the popes are "successors" to Jesus. And that we beleive that Jesus is dead.
(Reggie) Of course, Havoc never implied that anyone believed Jesus was dead. Another "Dave Straw Man".
Yes, he did. Duh. Read the quote you quoted and that I quoted. He says that Jesus didn't pick a successsor, He isn't dead. What am I supposed to make from that? I read things in context and that is obviously a slur on me and Catholic belief.
Or am I to believe that each sentence that everyone writes is wholly unrelated to any other sentence?
Again: (SD) That's a strawman, dude. The Pope is not a successor to Jesus and we do not teach that Jesus is dead.
(Reggie) The strawman is Dave's, only Dave's. However, there are some Catholic sources, just as "official" as SpinningDave which teach otherwise.
Oh, do go on. Let's see the official Catholic sources that teach Jesus is dead. Not that I trust any of your scholarship for a minute, but let's pretend these are real quotes anyway.
Vatican I devotion ascribed to the pope the title "King of Kings" and "'Supreme Ruler of the World." This excessive veneration included appellations such as "Vice-God of Humanity" and "Exalted King of the Universe."
So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
The Vatican Newspaper La Civilta Cattolica recorded that the pope was the "Mind of God" and pontificated that "when the pope meditates, it is God Who thinks in him." So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Bishop Bereaud of Tulle, France, wrote that "the pope was the Word of God made flesh, living in our midst."
This has to be a lie. But anyway, So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
John Bosco reminded us that the pope was "God on earth" while triumphantly proclaiming that "Jesus has placed the pope higher than the prophets, than John the Baptist, and than all the angels." He concluded, to no one's surprise, that "Jesus has put the pope on the same level as God"! (John Bosco, Meditazioni, Vol. 1: 2nd ed., pp. 89-90)
Another lie, I'm sure. Still So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Moreri (Roman Theologian): "To make war against the pope is to make war against God, seeing that the pope is God and God is the pope."
Ripped otu of context, certainly. Anyway So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Nicolaus de Tudeschis, in "Commentaria" (lvi, 34): "The pope can do all things God can do."
Context would be helpful. Nevertheless So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Pope Leo XIII: "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." (June 20, 1894; Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII: Benziger Brothers, "Reunion of Christendom", p. 304)
So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Pope (St.) Pius X: "The pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks."
Lofty language, not to be misunderstood literally. Besides So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Not to be outdone, Pope Pius XI declared: "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on earth." (Butler, Scriptural Truths for Roman Catholics: Dr. B. Brewer, Mission to Catholics, Int.)
So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
...and in modern times...
Lest anyone think that things have changed from those triumphal days of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, they have only to read the words uttered recently by Cardinal John O'Connor of New York: "The Holy Father is the true successor of Christ on earth." (Sermon, St. Patrick's Cathedral, New York, March 1987)
In a sense he is. So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Until the ritual was terminated by Pope John Paul I, when the triple crown was placed on the head of a new Pope at his "coronation" the officiating cardinal proclaimed: "Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns, and know that thou art the Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World; the Vicar of Our Saviour Jesus Christ..."
So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
The celebrated New York Catechism states clearly and proclaims, somewhat embarrassingly, that, "The pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth... the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." (Exact Translation)
So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
MOUNT NEBO, Jordan, March 20, 2000 (Reuters): "The Pope is the king of the whole world" Caroline Neemah, a 78-year-old Christian resident of Madaba, as she waited for the Pope's motorcade. Even the common Catholic pilgrim has a distorted sense who is King.
So? Doesn't say Jesus is dead, does it?
Now what were you trying to prove?
SD
If Jesus just did this to "restore" Peter, why did He never restore the other apostles who didn't even hang around in order to have the opportunity to deny Him, but instead fled in terror?
I guess this makes Peter the only true apostle, using your definitions.
SD
They hadn't finished their 90-day probationary period yet?
To ALL: Please pray for me. I had a bad bout with kidney stones last night and had to be taken to the ER by ambulance. The kids thought it was kind of cool seeing an ambulance come to the house. ;^)
Anyway, they ended up giving me something for the pain and sent me home with more pain pills and antibiotics. So, if you will, please pray that the stone would pass SOON.
-ksen
I understand that you are a strident and committed defender of the Papacy. But would you admit that it is possible that the authority of the Pope has been overstated at times by the Catholic hierarchy, and that there is a need for the conception of his authority to be clearly dilineated?
Mistating me again, as usual. I didn't make a lot out of a colon. I merely said the colon was entered to show what the greek shows by absence of caps - that the thought is continuing to be fleshed out within the verse. The verse is not expressing two or three independant thoughts, the two statements about binding and loosing flow from the same thought as the statement of the keys - the thought did not change. No change of thought means no differentiation between the keys and the notion of "binding and loosing". Care to respond to what was really said, this time.
Come on Dave, don't you think there is a difference between out and out denying the Lord and running for your life? To me there is a difference.
-ksen
"O Holy Father, heavenly Physician of our souls and bodies, who has sent thine Only-begotten Son our Lord Jesus Christ to heal all our ailments and deliver us from death. Do Thou visit and heal thy servant, granting him release from pain and restoration to health and vigor, that he may give thanks unto Thee and bless Thy Holy Name, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
Godspeed, ksen. Hope you're on the mend soon.
Will do. I hear it's nothing to look forward to. I always ask for Marinol (ask for it by name). They never give it to me. :-(
SD
Anytime this construct is used in Greek, it means there is no differentiation between the thoughts? Or does it just mean they are related thoughts, tied together, but not "undifferentiated."
(Wow, that reads like one of the sentences a few weeks ago about "Begotten.")
SD
One deied with words to save his hide, but hung around to see what was going to happen. The others denied with their actions. I think running away is more of a denial.
SD
I will present one of the keys and challenge anyone here to even identify the substance of it. Surely what with all the disputing of who possessed them we know what they are?
Isaiah 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Maybe that is a different point. It's not the way I was reading Reggie. One of the quotes uses "successor" and I don't like it. "Succesor is a bad word as it seems to imply that the one before is no longer. That quote, if valid and not taken from context badly, I have a problem with. The rest merely state that the Pope holds the place of Christ on earth, which is what vicarhood is all about. Or that one who hears the Pope (Church) hears God, because of the protection of the HS from error that the Pope and Church receive.
I understand that you are a strident and committed defender of the Papacy. But would you admit that it is possible that the authority of the Pope has been overstated at times by the Catholic hierarchy, and that there is a need for the conception of his authority to be clearly dilineated?
There is some historical hysteria, certainly. Mostly due to the Protestant reformation, when people began to openly defy the Pope. Some of the language is a little hysterical (not funny, but over excited.) Losing temporal power was another occasion for inflated rhetoric.
I think the Pope's authority is pretty well delineated now.
SD
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