Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Really, when did the 1000 year period start? Are you among yet another group that uses fuzzy math?
Turning from dead works to faith in the living God means to stop relying on our own good deeds to get us into Heaven. To stop hoping that, should we die, the good things we have done in life will, hopefully, outweigh the bad things we have done, thus letting us enter into Heaven.
ksen: It is possible for a Christian to backslide. I personally believe that if a Christian backslides far enough that God will take that person home rather then let them stay here on earth.
Wordsmith: I don’t agree. I believe that God gives us every opportunity to repent of our errors and return to Him. Even if, like the Prodigal, we have known the goodness of His house but have fled regardless, God will wait watching for our return rather than strike us down. Of course, we should never imagine that repentance is something we’ll have “plenty of time for later.” We never know when our soul will be demanded of us.
I agree, as long as there is breath in our body we have a chance to turn back to God. By backsliding I mean to go back to living in sin. The backslidden Christian that God took home that I mentioned above would still go to Heaven, he just would not have as many rewards as he would have had if he had lived a "good" life.
So it is not possible to believe in Christ, then stop believing in Christ, and then return to belief? It seems that the testimony of Christians through the ages contradicts this.
Would you please elaborate upon what you mean by "stop believing in Christ"? I believe that a Christian can become carnal, i.e. get involved with sin again, but this gets us back to what is it that REALLY gets us to Heaven, the power of God, or our own works?
I agree with you for the most part, but it seems that you are equating Salvation with Baptism. One “becomes a Christian” through Baptism. Baptism is not a guarantee of Salvation. Your belief seems to be that we are “saved for sanctification,” while the Orthodox belief which I share is that we are “saved through sanctification.”
One becomes a Christian by believing on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Water baptism does nothing with regards to getting us into Heaven. Water baptism is merely a testimony to the outside world of something that has happened inside of us already.
I’d be interested in hearing your perspective on another relevant part of Scripture, the parable of the wise and foolish virgins (Mt. 25 1-13). This has probably all been gone over here before in discussions over the meaning of “once saved, always saved,” but I’m not familiar with the Baptist understanding of this parable.
Ok, but remember what they say, "Be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it." ;^)
I don't believe that this parable has any real bearing on the OSAS debate. Let's go through that passage and see what it has to say. (I will only post references to save bandwidth, FYI I am using the KJV as I go through this)
Mt 25:1-2, here we see that this is a "Kingdom of Heaven" parable. We need to note that the Kingdom of Heaven has a special meaning in the book of Matthew. It symbolizes the earthly, 1,000 year millenial reign of Christ. With that in mind, let's continue.
The verses also mention 10 virgins, 5 wise and 5 foolish. These represent everybody on earth. Just because they are virgins does mean that they represent only saved or righteous people.
Mt 25:3-4, this is the part of the passage that seperates out those who are saved with those who are not. The ones that took oil in their lamps, are saved. The ones who did not take in their lamps, are not saved. The oil represents the Holy Spirit.
Mt 25:5-7, verse 5 is probably a commentary on the sad state of affairs in 21st century Christianity, but that's a different sermon, er, exegesis. Here we see the approach of the bridegroom. Everyone hears it and gets up [remember every eye will see him] from their slumbers. Everyone attempts to light their lamps.
Mt 25:8-9, only the lamps of the wise virgins lighted. The foolish virgins tried to get the wise virgins to give them some of their oil, but the wise ones would not. The foolish were going to have to find some of their own oil.
Mt 25:10-12, the foolish virgins come back to find the wise virgins gone. The wise virgins had gone with the bridegroom. The foolish virgins attempted to join them but could not.
Mt 25:13, here we are told what the message of the parable is, watch, because we don't know when the Lord will come.
Ok, I went throught all of that and probably didn't answer your question. This parable tells us what the Rapture of the Saints will be like. Everyone will see Christ, only those with the Holy Spirit living in them, i.e. the Saved people, will go with Jesus. This is a parable that deals with the Rapture.
What does the Orthodox Tradition say about this passage?
Theological debate aside, I wonder how different our views are when applied. We both believe that our initial repentance leads us to true Baptism which leads us to the life of Sanctification. The difference seems to be in our understanding of what constitutes Sanctification, and in emphasis. At what point in this process does “Salvation” occur? We will find out for certain at the end. If I follow Christ believing that it is necessary for me to work out my “salvation with fear and trembling” and find at the end that my Salvation had never been in doubt since my Baptism, so be it. If you follow Christ believing that your life of Sanctification follows your Salvation rather than being your Salvation, and at the end find that your life of Sanctification was part of your Salvation, so be it. We’ve both entered the Kingdom. Christ Bless.
I've posted what I thought about Sanctification before, let me repost my thoughts for you.
I believe that Salvation can be broken up into three parts, I think there is Scriptural support for all of this. The three parts are: 1)Justification, 2) Sanctification, and 3)Glorification. Here is just a brief note on each.
1) Justification: This happens when one first comes to believe on Christ. A sinner comes to God and trusts in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the payment of his sin debt. God judicially declares that person justifies. God imputes the righteousness of Christ to that person at that point in time. This is the stage where Heaven is guaranteed to a person.
2)Sanctification: Once someone has been Justified, they then start to be Sanctified. This is an outward working of what has already gone on inside a Believer at the moment of Justification. This process lasts the whole earthly lifetime.
3) Glorification: This happens either at death or at the Second Coming of Christ. Should a Believer die before Christ comes back, that person is ushered into the presence of God to await the Second Coming, not that time really matters in Heaven, but from our point of view there is a passage of time. Should a Believer be caught up in the Rapture then Glorification occurs then. Glorification is when our corruptible put on incorruptible, our mortality puts on immortality. Our sin nature is gone and we have received our glorified bodies. Our Salvation is complete, it is no longer a promise that we are waiting for.
Whew! I hope I didn't wear you out. I look forward to your response when you get a chance.
-ksen
Ok. Here's my top three love/hate sports teams list.
1. Colorado Buffalos
2. Denver Broncos
3. Any team team west of the Mississippi when they play a team east of the Mississippi.
The hate list:
1. Oakland Raiders
2. Notre Dame
3. Any team from New York or New Jersey.
Turning from dead works to faith in the living God means to stop relying on our own good deeds to get us into Heaven. To stop hoping that, should we die, the good things we have done in life will, hopefully, outweigh the bad things we have done, thus letting us enter into Heaven.
If this is your definition of the single act we participate in which accomplishes our salvation, I still don't see anything in this definition that necessitates this being a single point-in-time happening. But I'm willing to drop that discussion for now, and agree to disagree. God Bless.
Amen! Preach it Brother!
-ksen
So you don't think Christians should have any say in government?
“These parables are like the former parable of the faithful servant, and of him that was ungrateful and devoured his Lord's goods. For there are four in all, in different ways admonishing us about the same things, I mean about diligence in almsgiving, and about helping our neighbor by all means which we are able to use, since it is not possible to be saved in another way. But there He speaks more generally of all assistance which should he rendered to one's neighbor; but as to the virgins, he speaketh particularly of mercifulness in alms, and more strongly than in the former parable. For there He punishes him that beats, and is drunken, and scatters and wastes his lord's goods, but here even him that doth not help, nor spends abundantly his goods upon the needy. For they had oil indeed, but not in abundance, wherefore also they are punished.
“But wherefore doth He set forth this parable in the person of the virgins, and doth not merely suppose any person whatever? Great things had He spoken of virginity, saying, "There are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven's sake;" and, "He that is able to receive, let him receive it." He knew also that the generality of men would have a great opinion of it. For indeed the work is by nature great, and is shown so by this, that neither under the old dispensation was it fulfilled by these ancient and holy men, nor under the new was it brought under the compulsion of the law. For He did not command this, but left it to the choice of his hearers. Wherefore Paul also said "Now, concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord." "For though I praise him that attains thereto, yet I constrain not him that is not willing, neither do I make the thing an injunction." Since then the thing is both great in itself and hath great honor with the multitude, lest any one attaining to this should feel as though he had attained to all, and should be careless about the rest, He putteth forth this parable sufficient to persuade them, that virginity, though it should have everything else, if destitute of the good things arising out of almsgiving, is cast out with the harlots, and He sets the inhuman and merciless with them. And most reasonably, for the one was overcome by the love of carnal pleasure, but these of money. But the Jove of carnal pleasure and of money are not equal, but that of carnal pleasure is far keener and more tyrannical. And the weaker the antagonist, the less excusable are these that are overcome thereby. Therefore also He calls them foolish, for that having undergone the greater labor, they have betrayed all for want of the less. But by lamps here, He meaneth the gift itself of virginity, the purity of holiness; and by oil, humanity, almsgiving, succor to them that are in need.
"Then, while the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept." He shows that the time intervening will not be short, leading His disciples away from the expectation that His kingdom was quite immediately to appear. For this indeed they hoped, therefore He is continually holding them back from this hope. And at the same time He intimates this too, that death is a sleep. For they slept, He saith.
"And about midnight there was a cry made." Either He was continuing the parable, or again He shows that the resurrection will be at night. But the cry Paul also indicates, saying, "With a shout, with a voice of an archangel, with the last trump, He shall come down from Heaven." And what mean the trumpets, and what saith the cry? "The bridegroom cometh." When therefore they had trimmed their lamps, the foolish say unto the wise, "Give us of your oil." Again He calls them foolish, showing that nothing can be more foolish than they who are wealthy here, and depart naked thither, where most of all we have need of humanity, where we want much oil. But not in this respect only were they foolish, but also because they looked to receive it there, and sought it out of season; and yet nothing could be more humane than those virgins, who for this especially were approved. Neither do they seek for it all, for, "Give us," they say, "of your oil;" and the urgency of their need is indicated; "for our lamps," they say, "are going out." But even so they failed, and neither the humanity of those whom they asked, nor the easiness of their request, nor their necessity and want, made them obtain.
“But what now do we learn from hence? That no man can protect us there, if we are betrayed by our works, not because he will not, but because he cannot. For these too take refuge in the impossibility. This the blessed Abraham also indicated, saying, "Between us and you there is a great gulf," so that not even when willing is it permitted them to pass it.
"But go to them that sell, and buy." And who are they that sell? The poor. And where are these? Here, and then should they have sought them, not at that time.
“Seest thou what great profit arises to us from the poor? shouldest thou take them away, thou wouldest take away the great hope of our salvation. Wherefore here must we get together the oil, that it may be useful to us there, when the time calls us. For that is not the time of collecting it, but this. Spend not then your goods for nought in luxury and vainglory.For thou wilt have need of much oil there.
“Having heard these things, those virgins went their way; but they profiled nothing. And this He saith, either pursuing the parable, and working it up; or also by these things showing, that though we should become humane after our departure, we shall gain nothing from thence towards our escape. Therefore neither did their forwardness avail these virgins, because they went to them that sell not here, but there; nor the rich man, when he became so charitable, as even to be anxious about his relations. For he that was passing by him that was laid at the gate, is eager to rescue from perils and from hell them whom he did not so much as see, and entreats that some be sent to tell them these things. But nevertheless, he derived no benefit from thence, as neither did these virgins. For when they having heard these things went their way, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready went in with Him, but the others were shut out. After their many labors, after their innumerable toils, and that intolerable fight, and those trophies which they had set up over the madness of natural appetite, disgraced, and with their lamps gone out, they withdrew, bending down their faces to the earth. For nothing is more sullied than virginity not having mercy; so that even the multitude are wont to call the unmerciful dark. Where then was the profit of virginity, when they saw not the bridegroom? and not even when they had knocked did they obtain, but they heard that fearful saying, "Depart, I know you not." And when He hath said this, nothing else but hell is left, and that intolerable punishment; or rather, this word is more grievous even than hell. This word He speaks to them also that work iniquity?
"Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour." Seest thou how continually He adds this, showing how awful our ignorance concerning our departure hence? Where now are they, who throughout all their life are remiss, but when they are blamed by us, are saying, At the time of my death, I shall leave money to the poor. Let them listen to these words, and be amended. For indeed at that time many have failed of this, having been snatched away at once, and not permitted so much as to give charge to their relations touching what they wished to be done.”
First, is it then, as referenced earlier, the same knowing - factual historical knowing - that constitutes "believing on Christ"? Believing used in this same sense as we believe that Napolean crowned himself emperor? A reasoned conclusion based on credible historical evidence?
And secondly, from:
"I guess the choice would have to be between believing God’s testimony as written in the Scriptures, or not. We have to go back to having what the Bible says as the basis for the knowledge with which we can then make an informed decision."
On what basis did you decide that the Bible was God's testimony; which other scriptures and teachings did you examine using this same criteria? This would seem to me to be a necessary preceeding informed decision in order for those following to have a sound foundation.
Many thanks for your courteous discussion.
Thanks, good answers all. I guess the only one of the "trinity" we all seem to be avoiding is the Holy Spirit, "He" isn't very popular I suppose. I have been studying the New Jerusalem and would like to share what I believe to be a key to understanding it for your consideration. I believe the New Jerusalem is the spititual fulfillment of what the ephod represented. Notice the similarities and I would appreciate any insight you might have. Interestingly Jesus wore a garment which could be considered an ephod which the Jewish priests wore as it was of one woven piece of cloth. Also I have heard it said that the names of the stones has changed over time and would like to know how to verify that. Take care and God bless.
Exodus 39:5 And the curious girdle of his ephod, that was upon it, was of the same, according to the work thereof; of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen; as the LORD commanded Moses.
6 And they wrought onyx stones inclosed in ouches of gold, graven, as signets are graven, with the names of the children of Israel.
7 And he put them on the shoulders of the ephod, that they should be stones for a memorial to the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
8 And he made the breastplate of cunning work, like the work of the ephod; of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 It was foursquare; they made the breastplate double: a span was the length thereof, and a span the breadth thereof, being doubled.
10 And they set in it four rows of stones: the first row was a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this was the first row.
11 And the second row, an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
12 And the third row, a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
13 And the fourth row, a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper: they were inclosed in ouches of gold in their inclosings.
14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
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