Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Thanks for sharing that one...I never picked that one up before.
Your welcome, I have had something on my mind last night while attempting to fall asleep and this morning. I have been pondering the miracle of Peter casting for the fish for the "piece of money" that would be in it's mouth. I would like any observations of this event, such as the fact that the coin would be in the fishes mouth and not yet swallowed. This seems an amazing point to me as I would think the fish would instinctively swallow it and have seen pictures of Peter cutting the fish open implying that it had swallowed the coin. I believe that is error but would like any points on this event, thanks.
That's a good summary of the official Roman position. My point was that the official declaration on Anglican orders was made after the sacrificial language was restored to the liturgy as a result of the Oxford Movement. Keep in mind there are many "Anglican" liturgies, just as there were many "uses" in England prior to the reformation. Sarum was the most prevalent but there were four other major liturgies in use and many local variations.
I have seen traditionalist RC literature that says the new Roman ordinal uses the same language that supposedly rendered the Anglican ordinal null and void. I don't know whether this is true as I couldn't find an online version of it.
One of the long-running jokes in the formerly Episcopal Church was that Fon du Lac, properly translated, means "fond of lace." Yes, angelo, that's the same Fon du Lac.
Numbers please.
I did a search for this on Yahoo and found this site. There's some pretty good info on this particular page about this subject, but I chose to post only a chart that they got from Barna. If you want to read the rest of the article, follow the link. Enjoy ...
| Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) | % who have been divorced |
| Non-denominational (small groups; independents) | 34% |
| Baptists | 29% |
| Mainline Protestants | 25% |
| Mormons | 24% |
| Catholics | 21% |
| Lutherans | 21% |
a) This means something and children can not give consent. OR
b) You read the Catechism as a gudeline, and not as a lawyer looking for loopholes. This isn't the way to approach the study of chastity, or godliness.
INCEST Dave, we were speaking of INCEST.
By your stupid analogy, adult siblings cannot commit incest. Give it up.
I was using this for the case of minors, or one adult and one minor, where consent can not be given. But you are correct, this does not address the case of adult, freely consenting incest.
Other than the fact which has already been explicated that only conjugal acts within marriage which do not frustrate procreation are approved of. Since siblings can not marry, there goes your theory. Sorry.
Likewise, I re-double my accusation that you are reading the Catechism looking for loopholes. I would not recommend you pattern your life after whatever you find with this oh so clever method of reading.
"A lawyer looking for loopholes"! This coming from the self appointed "expert" who explains what the Catechism "really" means. You are priceless. Misguided, prone to "spin", vulgarity, and boorishness, but priceless nevertheless.
I only have to explain things to people who lack the understanding of the terms and concepts involved. Or those looking for loopholes.
Answer this honestly. Do you think the Church approves of incest? Beastiality? Necrophilia?
Or are you just looking for loopholes and missing the plain statement about marriage being the only outlet for sexual expression?
SD
We are discussing civil divorces granted and the stated religion/denomination of the participants. Whether the Church or strict Catholics view a marriage as valid or existing is not relevant. The state is the one issuing divorces. The number of divorces issued by the Church is zero.
SD
No, but I went to your "Gay" site and found that incest was just fine.
I looked up "obtuse" in the dictionary and there you were. The point of the gay site was that they (the gays) consider the Church to be an enemy. They have no problem discerning whether the Church approves of gays or the gay "lifestyle." I wonder why seemingly educated, literate men such as yourself and Havoc do?
SD
That's an intersting passage. It would seem like it's the fullfillment of some prophecy, but I don't know which one it would be.
The great fish spit Jonah out of it's mouth at God's command...I wonder if there's any kind of connection there?
But he did. If he had not approved of it, it never would have been official teaching in the West. TRD speaks of councils that were overturned by later councils, I know of examples that were Arian or Iconoclastic. I know not of any council approved by the Bishop of Rome that were later reputed.
That says something about the conciliar system and its limitations.
SD
I know the Orthodox, at least around here, make the best pierogies. Though they usually spell it funny, like "pirohi."
SD
Wrong. I refrain from calling you a liar, because I believe you are honestly mistaken.
Are you saying that you "adore" Mary or "worship", Mary? Which is it?
No, I'm not wrong nor am I mistaken. Practically every papist I've met when challenged with them worshipping Mary by praying to Mary, respond that they worship Mary, giving the meaning of "worship" to be veneration, but they don't "adore" Mary, giving the meaning of "adoration", to be what "worship" means in Scripture.
(BTW--a question--if 60,000 people are praying to Mary at the same time, does Mary hear all of them at once, or are they recorded so she can listen to them one at the time?)
No, it is you who are wrong, and I won't call you a liar either because I know how confused most papist are.
That sucks. I pass three other churches on the way to my lifetime parish. But it only takes me 15 minutes to get where I'm going. Of course, 10 years from now, on this thread, ask me again. At least one of the parishes will be likely gone, if not two of them. But not good old St. Barbara's. We just re-built and expanded our facility.
My own Archbishop has accused his own flock of believing they should stay safe in their "ethnic ghettos." Typical American immigrant behavior, since most Orthodox are newer arrivals to this country, but not right spiritually. This is often a source of tension between the large American convert population in the Orthodox Church (especially among the clergy) and the Orthodox laity that is guilty of thinking of the Church as a bastion of their ethnicity first and a bastion of God only second.
I find this peculiar. Back in my father's time the Catholic immigrant steel workers all had seperate churches, an Irish one, a Polish one, an Italian one, etc. (Actually two of the Churches I don't go to were traditionally the "Italian" and "German" ones in town.) But that has mostly passed by now with intermarriage.
SD
It is a perversion of it, a mockery of it. But those engaged in it believe they are commiting a conjugal act.
SD
Excellent point. One that has not been made here. I would submit if Mary could hear more than 1 prayer at a time that would make her something other than mere man. And the catholics wouldn't want to admit that? Would they?
Conjugal Act for artificial birth control oh silly one.
Who is the silly one? This response of mine you quote is to your assertion that celibacy was a sin since it wasn't open to procreation. Since celibacy is not a "conjugal act," you have successfully hoisted yourself on your own petard. Congratulations.
SD
Then why did God TELL Abraham to DO IT?
Did you read the rest of the story? I don't want to ruin the ending for you.
SD
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