Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Now that's funny.
On that note, good evening. Always leave 'em laughing.
SD
Never said I was a biblical scholar - this rebuttal stuff is all new to me, I'm doing my best. I believe it yes, because I read lots of material (including the Bible) and the I believe the Tradition of the Catholic Church; so far you haven't been able to show me a better tradition.
You are wrong about not sending the CEO anywhere. I remember when I worked for one of the Big 8 accounting firms - they were all starting to merge with one another and guess who used to leave the office for merger meetings??? Yes, the CEO ... It was a bad analogy anyway, I just wanted to get your post answered and done with.
The Oxford Movement restored in practice much of the "catholicity" that had been stripped out during the reformation. It's a long story that few here would find interesting. Suffice to say that the Oxford Movement was the genesis of "high church" or "Anglo-Catholic" Anglicanism. It was embraced more in some provinces than others. It was highly influential in the U.S. particularly in the northern states, not so much in the south, and had a profound influence on the 1928 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church - which was replaced in 1979 but is still the standard for worship in the continuing Anglican churches in the US.
It is interesting to note that the Oxford Movement is what led to asking Rome for an opinion on Anglican orders, to which Rome declared them "absolutely null and utterly void." How ironic that a return to catholic practice led to the formal rejection whereas all during the years of protestant practice Rome remained officialy undeclared in re Anglican orders.
WS, from #30123: Hey, I got to use it! Or try to. Its the penalty ref, but I'm not sure its showing up - its not in preview.
Hi Dave. Keep it soothing, and refrain from profanity even via astericks.
Hi Reggie. Delayed flag toss, but I got him. You can scroll back and see. He thanked me for the "moderation," but didn't apologize to Isaiah. I don't think he will though, since he was provoked in to "shunning" him. :)
I'm sure the feds will be knocking down my door any time now.
That would be rather interesting. One of the guys I work with is an ex-catholic. He left catholicism to become a strict Bible based Christian. He later married a Protestant. His parents evidently don't treat him any too good now, and they treat his wife like less than a human being. I'm just wondering how many divorces happen that are considered other than divorce because catholics don't view the marriage as valid. Just a curiosity. I think my coworker would tell someone to stuff it before he'd ever consider the notion of parting with his wife.
Thanks, I didn't think of it. Not sure where I picked it up.
It's been around for a long time, even in Anglican circles. It's kind of like cheesehead. Pejorative when used towards them (as in low church Anglicans using it to describe high church or Anglo-Catholic Anglicans) but something of a badge of pride when used by them.
Guys,
Back in the old days, when I was in the Episcopal Church and later the ACA ( same as trad_anglican) I heard and expanded
form: smells, bells, and midget races
It really does describe the low church view of high church worship.
Paul (ex-Evangelical, ex-Anglican, now-Orthodox <== simplified version)
Where did the midget races come from? Acolytes, torch bearers, and other assorted young ecclesiastical assistants?
Wow, deja vu. This is the exact same issue that got me tangled up the tar baby of FR religious threads in the first place about 6 weeks ago. I understand your position on the changes in the Church, and respect your opinion. But, what I'm wondering, is if you believe that the Pre-Constantinian Church and the Post-Constantinian Church were the same Church, although changed, or a different Church.
A second question would be whether you believe the legalization of Christianity and its rise to prominence in the Empire (accomodation with wealth and power) had to lead to corruption of the Church itself. In other words, is it possible for the Church to exist in a favored position in society, or is it necessary for it to be weak and victimized to truly be the Church?
The "post" Church group which accomodated itself to the "perks" of wealth and power became the RCC.
Well, to be more complete it became the Orthodox Church and the Romans split off a while later. I know you know the difference, I just like to make the clarification. I am very ready to defend the Church of Constantine's era, but I don't like people to think that means I'm defending today's RCC in any way, shape, or form. God Bless.
It is interesting to note that the Oxford Movement is what led to asking Rome for an opinion on Anglican orders, to which Rome declared them "absolutely null and utterly void." How ironic that a return to catholic practice led to the formal rejection whereas all during the years of protestant practice Rome remained officialy undeclared in re Anglican orders.Thanks for the info on the Oxford Movement. As far as Anglican orders goes, the problem (as I understand it) is that the new Sacramentary printed under Edward VI left out all mention of, and actually denied, the sacrificial priesthood. Consequently, when the English bishops ordained new priests, they specifically omitted or denied any sacrificial priesthood. Since the intention of the bishop or priest is crucial in the sacramental ministry and the new priests had not been ordained into the sacrificial ministry, when they themselves became bishops, they lacked the faculty of ordaining others into the sacrifieal priesthood.
How many years.
Chances of divorce.
Growing all the time, after the post I read today:)
Becky
You got it!
At the ACA pro-cathedral here in Portland, the services are *very* high church. I think the acolytes (whether
kids or adults, needed a drill instructor and a choreographer to keep from tripping over each other!
Compared to that, my Orthodox parish is just as liturgical but much more relaxed. It's hard to describe.
Paul
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