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The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)
Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams


Thread 162
TNS Archives


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; michaeldobbs
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To: SoothingDave
There are peasants in the Third World who've never even had the opportunity to urinate in a closet during severe turblance. SD

Now that's funny.

31,101 posted on 02/28/2002 1:53:08 PM PST by Havoc
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To: Wordsmith
I'm just itching to use the "penalty flag" graphic angelo left me - especially on an RC in order to show I'm not biased in favor of "sacramental Christians"! :-)

Where was your flag when soothingDave said "f----ng"? I pinged you but you must have been napping. :)
31,102 posted on 02/28/2002 1:55:11 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: Havoc
Now that's funny.

On that note, good evening. Always leave 'em laughing.

SD

31,103 posted on 02/28/2002 1:55:11 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: OLD REGGIE
Why don't you just get right down to brass tacks and say "because my Church tells me this is so"? You certainly aren't going to prove your case with your limited experience with Scripture.

Never said I was a biblical scholar - this rebuttal stuff is all new to me, I'm doing my best. I believe it yes, because I read lots of material (including the Bible) and the I believe the Tradition of the Catholic Church; so far you haven't been able to show me a better tradition.

You are wrong about not sending the CEO anywhere. I remember when I worked for one of the Big 8 accounting firms - they were all starting to merge with one another and guess who used to leave the office for merger meetings??? Yes, the CEO ... It was a bad analogy anyway, I just wanted to get your post answered and done with.

31,104 posted on 02/28/2002 1:59:11 PM PST by american colleen
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To: eastsider
I meant to ask you when you were distinguishing Anglican confessions -- where does the Oxford Movement fit into the distinctions?

The Oxford Movement restored in practice much of the "catholicity" that had been stripped out during the reformation. It's a long story that few here would find interesting. Suffice to say that the Oxford Movement was the genesis of "high church" or "Anglo-Catholic" Anglicanism. It was embraced more in some provinces than others. It was highly influential in the U.S. particularly in the northern states, not so much in the south, and had a profound influence on the 1928 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church - which was replaced in 1979 but is still the standard for worship in the continuing Anglican churches in the US.

It is interesting to note that the Oxford Movement is what led to asking Rome for an opinion on Anglican orders, to which Rome declared them "absolutely null and utterly void." How ironic that a return to catholic practice led to the formal rejection whereas all during the years of protestant practice Rome remained officialy undeclared in re Anglican orders.

31,105 posted on 02/28/2002 1:59:56 PM PST by trad_anglican
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To: OLD REGGIE
Reggie: Where was your flag when soothingDave said "f----ng"?

WS, from #30123: Hey, I got to use it! Or try to. Its the penalty ref, but I'm not sure its showing up - its not in preview.

Hi Dave. Keep it soothing, and refrain from profanity even via astericks.

Hi Reggie. Delayed flag toss, but I got him. You can scroll back and see. He thanked me for the "moderation," but didn't apologize to Isaiah. I don't think he will though, since he was provoked in to "shunning" him. :)

31,106 posted on 02/28/2002 2:01:21 PM PST by Wordsmith
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To: SoothingDave
Unregistered until he posted on a public forum.

I'm sure the feds will be knocking down my door any time now.

31,107 posted on 02/28/2002 2:02:30 PM PST by trad_anglican
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To: SoothingDave
Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person.

a) This means something and children can not give consent. OR

b) You read the Catechism as a gudeline, and not as a lawyer looking for loopholes. This isn't the way to approach the study of chastity, or godliness.

INCEST Dave, we were speaking of INCEST.

By your stupid analogy, adult siblings cannot commit incest. Give it up.

"A lawyer looking for loopholes"! This coming from the self appointed "expert" who explains what the Catechism "really" means. You are priceless. Misguided, prone to "spin", vulgarity, and boorishness, but priceless nevertheless.
31,108 posted on 02/28/2002 2:06:33 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE; RobbyS
Are you aware of the "divorce" rate between Protestants and Catholics? Divorce, not annulment.

That would be rather interesting. One of the guys I work with is an ex-catholic. He left catholicism to become a strict Bible based Christian. He later married a Protestant. His parents evidently don't treat him any too good now, and they treat his wife like less than a human being. I'm just wondering how many divorces happen that are considered other than divorce because catholics don't view the marriage as valid. Just a curiosity. I think my coworker would tell someone to stuff it before he'd ever consider the notion of parting with his wife.

31,109 posted on 02/28/2002 2:06:36 PM PST by Havoc
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To: trad_anglican;SoothingDave
"Smells and bells" huh? I like that.

Thanks, I didn't think of it. Not sure where I picked it up.

It's been around for a long time, even in Anglican circles. It's kind of like cheesehead. Pejorative when used towards them (as in low church Anglicans using it to describe high church or Anglo-Catholic Anglicans) but something of a badge of pride when used by them.

Guys,

Back in the old days, when I was in the Episcopal Church and later the ACA ( same as trad_anglican) I heard and expanded
form: smells, bells, and midget races

It really does describe the low church view of high church worship.

Paul (ex-Evangelical, ex-Anglican, now-Orthodox <== simplified version)

31,110 posted on 02/28/2002 2:07:29 PM PST by newberger
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To: newberger
smells, bells, and midget races

Where did the midget races come from? Acolytes, torch bearers, and other assorted young ecclesiastical assistants?

31,111 posted on 02/28/2002 2:13:00 PM PST by trad_anglican
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To: OLD REGGIE
In the very simplest terms; the "pre" Church was poor, weak, and victimized. The "post" Church group which accomodated itself to the "perks" of wealth and power became the RCC. Now, of course, you are aware this is my opinion. I am not stating it as a fact, although I know I am right. :)

Wow, deja vu. This is the exact same issue that got me tangled up the tar baby of FR religious threads in the first place about 6 weeks ago. I understand your position on the changes in the Church, and respect your opinion. But, what I'm wondering, is if you believe that the Pre-Constantinian Church and the Post-Constantinian Church were the same Church, although changed, or a different Church.

A second question would be whether you believe the legalization of Christianity and its rise to prominence in the Empire (accomodation with wealth and power) had to lead to corruption of the Church itself. In other words, is it possible for the Church to exist in a favored position in society, or is it necessary for it to be weak and victimized to truly be the Church?

The "post" Church group which accomodated itself to the "perks" of wealth and power became the RCC.

Well, to be more complete it became the Orthodox Church and the Romans split off a while later. I know you know the difference, I just like to make the clarification. I am very ready to defend the Church of Constantine's era, but I don't like people to think that means I'm defending today's RCC in any way, shape, or form. God Bless.

31,112 posted on 02/28/2002 2:14:36 PM PST by Wordsmith
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To: eastsider
How'd she stack up in the "querulous" department? : )

She was, and I assume is, a very sweet person. My main problem with her was the "marry the Greek" "marry the family" syndrome. I ran away when her uncle said "he is no goot for you" and she paid attention to him. (It might have been true but who is he to tell her.)
31,113 posted on 02/28/2002 2:18:03 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: IMRight
Have you found any Unitarian site that says "sin" with regard to incest? I'll settle for "evil" since I consider it stronger than just "sin".

No, but I went to your "Gay" site and found that incest was just fine.
31,114 posted on 02/28/2002 2:20:39 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: newberger
Hi Paul, Christ Bless! Getting ready for Lent? We've just found a new Church closer to home that will allow us to attend weekday services, thank God. It will be our first time attending services regularly at a Greek Church. The one downside about being Orthodox in America is certainly the sparcity of parishes. WS
31,115 posted on 02/28/2002 2:21:26 PM PST by Wordsmith
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To: trad_anglican; Wordsmith; The_Reader_David
It is interesting to note that the Oxford Movement is what led to asking Rome for an opinion on Anglican orders, to which Rome declared them "absolutely null and utterly void." How ironic that a return to catholic practice led to the formal rejection whereas all during the years of protestant practice Rome remained officialy undeclared in re Anglican orders.
Thanks for the info on the Oxford Movement. As far as Anglican orders goes, the problem (as I understand it) is that the new Sacramentary printed under Edward VI left out all mention of, and actually denied, the sacrificial priesthood. Consequently, when the English bishops ordained new priests, they specifically omitted or denied any sacrificial priesthood. Since the intention of the bishop or priest is crucial in the sacramental ministry and the new priests had not been ordained into the sacrificial ministry, when they themselves became bishops, they lacked the faculty of ordaining others into the sacrifieal priesthood.

I think it's reasonable to assume that some bishops ignored the new Sacramentary, and that there are indeed Anglican priests with valid ordination into the sacrificial priesthood. If there were to be any sacerdotal communion with Rome, I suspect the priests would be conditionally reordained, just as, if there is any question as to the validity of a convert's baptism, the convert would receive a conditional baptism.

I am unfamiliar with the Orthodox position on Anglican ordination, and would be interested in their views on the matter.
31,116 posted on 02/28/2002 2:21:38 PM PST by eastsider
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To: Wordsmith;SoothingDave
Earlier (maybe later) I said you weren't performing your duty. I was wrong. The fact is, I was several hours behind the posting. Please accept my most sincere apology.

Oh, BTW. May I continue to refer to SD as
SpinDoctor?
31,117 posted on 02/28/2002 2:30:35 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: Wordsmith;Isaiah_66_2; SoothingDave; angelo
Dave= "spoiled little child"

Weeelllllllll. Weeeellllllllllllllll. He is.
31,118 posted on 02/28/2002 2:36:27 PM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE, al_c, ksen
How many marriages,

1

How many years.

27

Chances of divorce.

Growing all the time, after the post I read today:)

Becky

31,119 posted on 02/28/2002 2:48:35 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: trad_anglican
smells, bells, and midget races Where did the midget races come from? Acolytes, torch bearers, and other assorted young ecclesiastical assistants?

You got it!

At the ACA pro-cathedral here in Portland, the services are *very* high church. I think the acolytes (whether
kids or adults, needed a drill instructor and a choreographer to keep from tripping over each other!

Compared to that, my Orthodox parish is just as liturgical but much more relaxed. It's hard to describe.

Paul

31,120 posted on 02/28/2002 2:50:09 PM PST by newberger
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