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The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)
Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams


Thread 162
TNS Archives


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; michaeldobbs
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To: Havoc
Your cannily feigned obtuseness doesn't cut it with me. Intrinsically disordered acts are by definition sinful acts; therefore, the Catechism clearly defines homosexual acts as intrinsically sinful.

Adolescent word games are no substitute for reasoned argument. You still owe us that apology.

30,881 posted on 02/28/2002 8:21:13 AM PST by B-Chan
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To: SoothingDave; Isaiah_66_2
What parts of "chastity" and "intrinsically evil" don't you uderstand?

Wait, methinks someone is changing words here.

30,882 posted on 02/28/2002 8:22:38 AM PST by Havoc
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To: JohnnyM
The Lawnmower Man??
Tourist Guy?
30,883 posted on 02/28/2002 8:24:00 AM PST by eastsider
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To: B-Chan
Would you say that the continuous practice of homosexuality, pedophilia, and other non-chaste sexual practices by priests is intrinsically evil and sin?
30,884 posted on 02/28/2002 8:25:49 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: Isaiah_66_2
Oh yes, the Church is EVIL!EVIL!EVIL! How does the man know? Why, he consults the spirits!
30,885 posted on 02/28/2002 8:26:24 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: Havoc
What parts of "chastity" and "intrinsically evil" don't you uderstand?
30,886 posted on 02/28/2002 8:28:05 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Its hard for alot of people in here to tell the difference.
On this, we agree: The hierarchy is not synonymous with the Church, nor coterminous with the people of God.
30,887 posted on 02/28/2002 8:28:12 AM PST by eastsider
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To: RobbyS
Yes, but Justinian was obliged by the Council he called to prove his own Orthodoxy, thereby showing that in matters ecclesiatical, councils called by the Emperor for the peace of the Church are superior to the Emperor. His confession of faith is now a hymn in the Divine Liturgy said immediately after the second antiphon.

It is nice to hear that you regard papal government as a development. But a universal council was hardly an innovation: besides the local councils there is as precedent the Apostolic Council recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. It was not a local council of the Church of Jerusalem, although the local bishop, St. James, the Brother of the Lord, presided, but a council to decide matters for the entire Church.

30,888 posted on 02/28/2002 8:28:50 AM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: SoothingDave
Oh, I wouldn't cuss, and subdeacon isn't a sufficiently exalted order for me to be pronouncing anathemas. :-)===
30,889 posted on 02/28/2002 8:31:21 AM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: Isaiah_66_2
Any practice of homosexuality, pedophilia, or other non-chaste sexuality -- whether by priests, Protestant ministers, rabbis, imams, Buddhists, Hindus, Shinto, animists, Trekkies, or any other human beings -- is intrinsically evil and sinful.
30,890 posted on 02/28/2002 8:31:59 AM PST by B-Chan
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To: Havoc
Wait methinks someone is changing words here.

That;s why it's important to scale the language barrier with papists and other religions or cults.

Such as, the papist say they "worship" Mary but don't "adore" Mary.

In papist terminology, they use "adore" where Scripture uses "worship", and their meaning of "worship" is not what Scripture means by "worship"---"escape hatch theology" at its finest, is what it is.

Then the papist will from one side of their mouth say they don't pray to Mary(which is an act of "adoration"), then out of the other side of their mouth will "pray" the Rosary 25 times for penance. Doublespeak at its finest.

Bill Klinton would have made an excellent papist.:-)

30,891 posted on 02/28/2002 8:32:09 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: Isaiah_66_2
Bill Klinton would have made an excellent papist.:-)

Appearently, he was more comfortable as a Baptist :)
And we have a rule here about using the "C" word. "Pagan" is ok "Clintonian" is a slur below the participants of the Thread.

30,892 posted on 02/28/2002 8:36:40 AM PST by IMRight
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To: SoothingDave
I invited you to define "chastity" and to explain how something that is "intrinsically evil" is not a sin. You have not.

How about let's look at what was said:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, 141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." 142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Now, short of dividing the above letters into columns and rows and playing word search where diagonal, bacward, horizontal and vertical scoring is possible - Would you mind pointing out where the phrase "intrinsically Evil" appears - anywhere in the above?

Secondly, chastity: 1. Virginity 2. Virtuousness 3. Celibacy. Right out of the dictionary. So, please honor us with the official Catholic version of the word for our Catholic dictionary of terms as it appears your redefinition of the language has bearing on what you think you're saying.

30,893 posted on 02/28/2002 8:38:00 AM PST by Havoc
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To: The_Reader_David
I notice you didn't defend the Emperor Leo :-) Yes, I am a great Newman fan, and by development I mean what he says: Newman
30,894 posted on 02/28/2002 8:39:14 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain;Invincibly Ignorant;angelo
angelo Steven said ass.

I confess, I called TRD the same thing yesterday. Steven must have seen that the "old geezer" got away with it and he copied. Shame! Yesterday was "Senior Day" and we have special privileges.
30,895 posted on 02/28/2002 8:39:21 AM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: RobbyS
Time for you to take a chill pill, or maybe a suppository.

Oh yes, the church is EVIL! EVIL! EVIL! How does this man know? Why he consults the spirits!

Hmmmmm, now, you are truly being hysterical. Did I say the entire papist church is evil? Nope, sure didn't. Did I say there is a pattern of evil conduct by the heirarchy of the papist church throughout a large part of history since the 6th century---yep, sure did! Does that make the entire church, evil---of course not, only those who use emotionally charged, hysterical rhetoric reach that conclusion.

Do I say that the Romanist gospel is a different gospel than the Gospel preached and taught in the Scriptures? Yes, I do.
Do I say that another gospel, other than the Gospel preached and taught in the Scriptures is evil----I agree with St. Paul in Galatians 1:8-9, But even if we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be ananthema.---I think St. Paul is quite clear that another gospel is evil.

30,896 posted on 02/28/2002 8:44:16 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: OLD REGGIE
The trouble is, your belief about the pre-Constantinian state of the Church is simply wrong, and unsupported by historical facts. The Church was not, as the Latins hold, headed by the Pope of Rome. Indeed such claims may be traced at earliest to some writings of Latin Fathers in defense of the authority of bishops, which are misquoted by the Latins as supporting a unique charism inheritted by the Bishop of Rome. (St. Cyprian, for instance, wrote about the "chair of Peter" in defense of his own episcopate in Carthage against a rebel named Felicissimus. His later writing support this interpretation, rather than that given by the Latins as applying the "chair of Peter" only to the Popes of Rome.)

Actual attempt to claim authority over the whole church seem to date to the rejection of one of the canons of the Holy Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon by St. Leo the Great in the fifth century. On the other hand, St. Gregory the Dialogist (called by the Latins St. Gregory the Great) later rejected the notion of universal papal authority in letters objecting to the titling of the Patriarch of Constantinople as Ecumenical Patriarch. (In Imperial usage "ecumenical" meant throughout the Empire, not "universal" as St. Gregory interpreted it). His letter is instructive since it reminds us that three sees have Petrine foundations: Antioch, Alexandria and Rome. Pope John VIII, likewise rejected the existence of universal papal authority by accepting the canons of the council regarded by the Orthodox as the Eighth Ecumenical Council, which limited papal jurisdiction to the Patriarchate of Rome, except under narrowly drawn appeal provisions of the canons of previous Ecumenical Councils. (Incidentally, the council I am citing anathematize the council the Latins call the "Eighth Ecumencial Council"--a pitfully attended synod which deposed St. Photius the Great from the see of Constantinople.)

I have already enumerated features of the Church before the Peace of Constantine which it shares with the presently existing Orthodox Church and the Roman Church as it exists. Your belief is beside the point if you do not think the ancient Church had these features. It did, and you have produced any historical evidence to support a contrary position.

30,897 posted on 02/28/2002 8:46:41 AM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: IMRight
Don't get me wrong, there are lots of Baptists, the "easy believism", liberal Mr. Jimmah Cartah types who are anathema as well.

if someone is offended by comparison of their doublespeak to that of the Klinstones and other various relativists, then maybe they should consider repenting.

30,898 posted on 02/28/2002 8:47:50 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: SoothingDave; Invincibly Ignorant
Is that the word for "Havoc gets to act superior and throw mud at the Catholics cause he doesn't understand concepts like "chastity" or what "intrinsically evil" means?"
Quod scripsi scripsi. (Steve: Cf. Jn19:22 : )
30,899 posted on 02/28/2002 8:48:12 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Havoc
Right out MY dictionary I read Chastity= state of being chaste. Chaste[OF,fr.L. castus, pure, chaste]= 1. Innocent of unlawful sexual intercourse;virtuous...
30,900 posted on 02/28/2002 8:49:25 AM PST by RobbyS
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