The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Elsie]

Now, now, Shreck was is really a nice guy!

Yup! Once you get past the gruffness.

[the808bass]

Rams 34 Patsies 12

[the808bass]

I can't clarify my thoughts on the matter.

Beautiful post. A chorus of angels was formed and was singing "Lift Every Voice and Sing" as I read your thoughts. Thanx. And I was right. I did agree.

[the808bass]

Has a supposed new letter of Paul been uncovered, or must we make do with what we have now?

Of course, my post was trying to point out that the books themselves were part of the consideration in the process of Canonization. You said the Canon did not define itself. I tried to clarify. While books are incapable of inserting themselves into the Newberry Medal list or onto the New York Times Bestseller list, those two are merely recognition of what has already been done. In other words, Canonizing a book doesn't make it inspired. God did that. Canonization is the recognition of what God has already done and to that extent, the Canon does define itself.

[the808bass]

This is like tuning into a soap opera in Spanish.

A) I assumed you spoke Spanish.
B) I assumed you'd been following the plot.
C) Commentary is for the weak.
Having the power of hermeneutic means never having to say you're sorry (or wrong)

Plus I gave you the basic means of locating these. They seem on face to be pretty clear as to how they view the idea of the keys (though not convergent). I believe the burden of proof would now fall to you.

[Woodkirk]

Wordsmith --- since you are Orthodox and probably more familiar with the Greek language, could you look up the Greek word [s] in Luke 1:28 that are translated either "full of grace", or "most highly favored". What is that Greek word and what is its meaning out of a Greek Dictionary? What would be its Hebrew counterpart? Thank You --

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I don't know what the greek words are that you are asking Wordsmith about, but there is another word in that same controversial:) verse that was pointed out to me just this morning in something I was reading. And that is the word "among." Wether your word comes out "highly favored" or "full of grace" the word among, IMO, shows that Mary was a normal human as any other women. If Mary was "sinless" as catholics believe the verse would have read "blessed art thou "above" women. But it says "blessed art thou among women." Among, same as the rest.

Becky

[Woodkirk]

I never paid much attention to that word "among" before. But it is very instructive. Isn't it interesting how the smallest of words can control the largest of them and yet they are often overlooked? Thank You --

[tiki]

It is you NCs who try to exalt Mary above humanity. It is Catholics who recognize her just as she was a human being, picked by God to bring His Son into the world.

You always say that Mary needed a redeemer like that is some kind of accusation. Yes, she needed a redeemer but she was redeemed by Her Son, before her conception.

If Mary was divine she would never have been referred to as "full of Grace" but as divine and her divinity would have been recognized.

It was precisely because she was "among women" that we respect her perfect acquiescence to God.

[Woodkirk]

So your Bible of choice is the Douay-Rheims [DR] Bible per #22135 -- right?

[american colleen]

If Mary was "sinless" as catholics believe the verse would have read "blessed art thou "above" women. But it says "blessed art thou among women." Among, same as the rest.

According to your interpretation, it should read "blessed are you and all women" - but it doesn't. IMO, using the word "among" does make her special and singles her out. Mary is the embodiment of perfect obedience.

[Wordsmith]

GO PATRIOTS!

Now that's heresy.

GO RAMS

BUT THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GAME!

[Wordsmith]

Thanks for the response, and God be with you. I'm trying to keep everyone on this thread in my prayers. I'm learning a lot here, and look forward to learning more. Judging by your response, you may have misread my last post, as the quote you excerpt is from the post from Havoc that I was replying to. Either way, its been a great dialogue.

[Wordsmith]

Robby, thanks for the thoughtful response. I'll try to spend time in the future on some of my thoughts about why the RCC seems to have embraced humanism in a way that it doesn't seem that the Orthodox have. I'm speaking broadly, and don't believe that at the level of the individual believer there is always a discernable difference. But at the broad level of how the faith is approached, there seems from the Orthodox point of view to a kind of ensconsed legalism to post-Schism RC theology with which we aren't comfortable. But, as I've tried to make clear, I do accept gratefully the mystical teachings concerning Mary and recognize their Orthodox roots. Praise God for His gift of the Theotokos, our lady and the first of the saints!

I add that one characteristic of radical Protestants--and I add, certain liberal Catholics--is to the iconographic tradition which I find so richly nourishing. I wonder if in the American Orthodox churches there has been a movement to "tone down" interior decoration and to make them look more like Methodist Churches?

Thank God, there has been no move within the American Orthodox community to de-emphasize or "tone down" iconography. One of the oddest experiences for me when entering a RC Church is the starkness, especially around the altar. All Orthodox Churches maintain a full iconostasis, and the rubrics of the liturgy have not been changed in any way, such as by having the priest face the congregation when offering the Holy Gifts. I've seen no difference between Arab, Russian, or Greek affiliated churches in the degree of reverence for iconography. We all still kiss icons upon entering the Church, venerate icons with metanias and at times full prostrations, kiss and venerate the Gospel Book as the greatest icon of all.

The one area in which there has been a change from the Christian artistic tradition is in Church architecture. While I've never seen an Orthodox Church building that incorporates any elements of what I'd call "modern" or "post-modern" architecture, some Orthodox Churches on the outside look indistinguishable from, say, old New England Protestant churches - with an Orthodox cross on top. This is in part due to the fact that many Orthodox congregations bought Protestant churches, and in part is due to the fact that architecture has always varied more across the Orthodox world than iconography has, and is seen as less significant. But even in the simplest of Churches - like the Orthodox mission Church I helped found in Colorado that used a converted carport for a chapel - easels were still set up with large icons placed on them in lieu of a full iconostasis and paper icons were taped on the walls. We love our "family portraits" deeply!

[Iowegian]

...could you look up the Greek word [s] in Luke 1:28 that are translated either "full of grace", or "most highly favored". What is that Greek word and what is its meaning out of a Greek Dictionary?

This has come up many times in the past, but I remember the808bass did an excellent summation of the correct Greek meaning (he knows more than most of us about Greek). I think it was a couple of months ago. I tried to do a FR post search, but it doesn't go back far enough. If you could find it, that would be good to read.

[Wordsmith]

When the other apostles could send Peter on a mission they certainly must have felt they were his equal and, collectively, his superior. He counted for one vote. ONE!

I agree, Reggie. While there is a long established tradition of showing the Church a Rome a higher level of respect, due both to Rome's history as the imperial seat of power and due to the tradition of believing that Peter was the first bishop of Rome, this in no way ever gave to the bishop of Rome any kind of dictatorial power in matters of either faith or Church administration.

Even if you accept the Roman claims about the validity of the tradition of Peter being the first Pope, the case still breaks down. The same tradition holds that Peter was also the first bishop of Antioch, so what about their claims? If the separate Patriarchates are like the Apostles, then like the Apostles the deepest matters can only be decided by all of them together, just like the Apostles modeled for us in the council of Jerusalem mentioned in Acts.

[Wordsmith]

Likewise, the Orthodox do not recognize the Council of Trent. Nonetheless, because they hold to Church tradition, they believe in the inspiration of those books which the Protestants have consigned to "Apocropha." The split between the Catholic and Orthodox occurred long before Trent, and that should take care of any question of whether Trent "added" the books.

Absolutely. The Orthodox have always considered the so-called "Apocrypha" to be God-inspired, although not of the same level of authority as the other books of Holy Scripture. In some ways, the view of the book of Revelation is between the two. While we accept it as inspired, and have always attributed it to the Apostle John, neither Revelation nor the Apocrypha are ever proscribed for reading during Liturgy. Every other book of the Bible is read from during a liturgy, and the entire New Testament, except for Revelation, is read during liturgy over the course of a Church year.

This is another point I try to emphasize with so-called Bible-based Christians. If you go to every liturgy over the course of a year - the expected standard that admittedly most do not reach - you will hear the entire New Testament read, in your own language, every year.

[Iowegian]

so-called Bible-based Christians...

Hmmm, OK. How was the service at your so-called Orthodox church today?

[Wordsmith]

Wordsmith --- since you are Orthodox and probably more familiar with the Greek language, could you look up the Greek word [s] in Luke 1:28 that are translated either "full of grace", or "most highly favored". What is that Greek word and what is its meaning out of a Greek Dictionary? What would be its Hebrew counterpart? Thank You --

WK - I'll look it up in Orthodox sources later today, but I doubt I'm even as familiar with Greek as most of the well-studied NC's here. My affiliation is with the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, and the ethnic back of many of my fellow parishoners is Arab. We've always performed the Liturgy in America in English. We do sing a few hymns in Greek (as well as Russian and Arabic - some just sound better in their original language), and I am familiar with some Greek theological terminology, but that's about it.

The Greek Orthodox Church in America has been much more committed to using the language of the immigrants' "homeland" than either the Russian or Arab descended Churches. Its something of a sticking point between us, although it doesn't prevent us from being in full communion with each other. Most Orthodox feel strongly that it has always been very important for Christians to both hear services in their native language and to read the Scriptures for themselves in their native language.

[Wordsmith]

so-called Bible-based Christians... Hmmm, OK. How was the service at your so-called Orthodox church today? Thank you for the well-deserved rebuke. My sincere apologies to all who may have taken offense. "So-called" is pretty demeaning, isn't it?

Is "self-proclaimed" better? I'm still trying to get comfortable with terminology. I didn't want to say "NC" because I don't think all "NC's" - for instance, UU's - would consider themselves "Bible-based" in the same way that "Independent Bible Based Church" Christians do. And, I think that any Orthodox or RC would consider themselves "Bibled-based" Christians as well. Would "exclusively Bible-based" work better? That might cut to the point.

The service was wonderful today at my so-called Orthodox Church. It is the Feast of the Presentation of Jesus at the Temple.

Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

- Luke 2:29-32

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.

- Hebrews 7:17

Hail O woman full of grace, Virgin and Mother of God; from you has arisen the Son of Justice, Christ our God, enlightening those who stand in darkness. You, too, just elder Simeon, rejoice, for you carried in your arms the Redeemer of our souls, our Resurrection.

- Troparion of the Feast of the Presentation