Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
When we say "Mother of God" we don't mean Creator of God. We don't believe that Mary created God, only that she was the earthly mother of God. Since God had to become man he needed a mother. The Title does not and never has meant God maker.
Let's look all the way back in Salvation history: What would the state of the world be like if Adam and Eve had never fallen? We would merely be creatures (servants and slaves to be more exact).
Not true. Adam and Eve had a free will, they were not mere creatures or slaves. They could obey God or not.
This would not be a bad thing of course - to spend our days walking in the garden with the Lord - but we would not have eternal life (or if we did, we would be more like the angels).
Death entered the world as a consequence of Adam's sin. Life in Eden was eternal. We are created like the angels are, but they have no bodies.
Instead, we not only have eternal life in Heaven, we have become adopted sons and daughters of God. Heirs of God & co-heirs with Christ. We shall, in fact, reign with him throughout eternity. This "good news" is infinitely and immeasurably above what we were ever destined to prior to the fall (and why I believe that even the fall was part of God's design). So now we can say "Behold what manner of Love the Father has given unto us... That we should be called children of God... and so we are!" This is not "and so we are" as in "and son-of-a-gun we are", it is that He has declared us His children and He cannot declare a thing without it being so (God cannot lie).
"Oh Glorious Sin of Adam" goes the Easter Exultet. Yes, the new plan with Christ is so much better than the old one.
But the mid-term result of their sin was to dis-grace us as a people. That is - Adam & Eve essentially said "no" to God and we became unable to ever say "yes" to Him. Our very nature is in opposition to His design for us and to His law. We have not the grace to respond to His call (until Christ, of course). We are generated after Adam and receive that fallen nature.
You have here a Calvinist conception which in not Catholic. Calvin teaches a total depravity, Catholicism teaches a partial depravity. We can still want to work to the good, but we are flawed. We are not totally depraved.
So now we come to Mary. Many non-Catholics (and many Catholics) believe that the Catholic position is that it would be impossible for a sinful woman to bear a sinless creature, so Mary had to be sinless. This is not so (and is demonstrably false since it would require Mary's mother to also be sinless etc. etc. etc.) Mary need not be sinless, and in fact, she certainly had committed the same types of sins all of us do. She only needs to be free from the dis-gracing nature of original sin (the stain of Adam) so that it is possible for her to say "yes" to Christ.
The transmission of Original Sin was stopped at Mary. It is also Catholic belief that Mary lived a life free of personal sin, due to the special graces given her for her role.
This does not mean that she had no personal sin from which she could (need) to be saved.
Yes it does.
But more importantly, lacking original sin could only elevate her from renegade servant or rebellious creature to one who was not in opposition to God's will (at best, the level Adam & Eve started at). It would not make her bound for Heaven and eternal life with the Father. She must still be saved.
No no no no no. "Original Sin" can be seen as a lack of sanctifying grace. This is the grace which saves us, makes us holy, makes us adpoted children of God. We are born lacking this and this is what baptism fills us with. One filled with sanctifying grace is ready for Heaven. Personal sin taps this sanctifying grace, thus our need for replenishment via the sacraments.
Mary was saved by Christ before she was born. She was preserved from Original Sin in the womb of her mother and she was given special graces to resist temptation to personal sin. Rather than save her from "the hole" in which most of us find ourselves, Jesus saved her from ever falling into that hole.
SD
The Godhead has no motherhood!
My Jesus is completely God and completely man. Yours is apparently something else. When did Jesus become God?
Maybe you can take a stab at my logic. Which one of these statements do you not agree with?
Jesus is God
Mary gave birth to Jesus
SD
Do you have a scripture reference for this, or is this oral tradition?
Becky
No it wasn't. I don't care how many times you or Reggie bold and captialize the word "brother" in a statement of the Church Fathers. It means the same thing it means in the Scripture you also quote -- it means "kin."
There is no "big admission" here, no "loophole," no "something the Catholics ignore." We are talking about what words mean, in context.
SD
I concur (based on scripture), but it seems to have become a minority position (at least where I).
JWinNC
Jesus always was and always will be, then he came to earth to save us. That is what the bible says. Your logic is "vain babblings" that we spoke of before. This is like asking can God create a rock he can't pick up. Stupid babblings is what I call them.
Becky
Oh Dave......
MARY WAS BORN WITHOUT SIN (the dogma of the Immaculate Conception). The Catholic Church denies that Mary had a sin nature or that she ever committed wrong doing. Following are quotes from Catholic publications:
The Immaculate Conception--or the fact that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin--is a doctrine of the faith contained implicitly [meaning that this doctrine is not actually taught in the Bible] in Holy Scripture. The Holy Ghost did not express it in so many words; but he deposited it in some Biblical statements from which, like a seed, it grew up in the living Church of Christ until it reached its full-size dimension. Could the mother of the Saviour, sharing in her Son's victory, be, even for a moment, under the power of Satan? She had to be free from original sin. Finally, in 1854, Pope Pius IX declared it a revealed doctrine--one of those that have to be believed by all who share the faith of the Church (Any Questions?, p. 67).
"The Immaculate Virgin [was] preserved free from all stain of original sin" (Vatican II documents, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church").
BIBLE ANSWER:
Mary was not sinless. She herself confessed her need of a Savior in Lk. 1:47. If she were indeed "immaculate" or sinless as the Catholic Church teaches, she would have had no need of a Savior. The Bible says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Ro. 3:23). The only exception mentioned in Scripture is the virgin born Son of God.
"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth" (1 Pe. 2:22).
"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens" (He. 7:26).
One will look in vain in the Bible for a reference to Mary as immaculate and without original sin.
BigMack
It all follows logically from the concept of grace and what being "full of grace" means. This, of course, hinges on the Greek meaning of "kerichrom" of "kodachrome" or whatever word that is.
And here's a surprise, Protestants translate it differently than Catholics do! :-)
In short, if I am "full of grace" I can not have any sin within me. Not an iota, not a microgram. Being full of grace means that my soul is spotless, it is ready for immediate entrance into Heaven. The use of the term to refer to Mary by the Angel at the Annunciation is the Scriptural basis.
SD
This brings to mind a video game, where you have "life energy" that is sapped when you are successfully attacked, and replenished when you pick up the right object in the game. Call it the "grace-o-meter". So, a mortal sin caused the grace-o-meter to fall instantly to 'zero'. But venial sins chip away at it. How many venial sins until one reaches the point where the grace-o-meter is at 'zero'?
For that matter, how can you know if something is truly a mortal vs. a venial sin? The definition in the universal catechism seems rather vague and subjective.
And how did Jesus come to earth?
Now, which statement don't you believe?
SD
Becky
I could tell you, but than I'd have to kill ya. :-)
I honestly haven't studied this aspect much. Some of it does hint of theologians with too much time on their hands. And then consider that an attachment to a venial sin can be a mortal sin...
Bottom line is all sin is deadly, if not repented of. Some demand immediate attention because of the gravity, but none are to be neglected or taken for granted.
SD
Do you have a bible reference for this?:)
Becky
The wording of Is. 9:6, speaking of the birth of Christ, is very precise. First we read, "A child is born." This refers to Jesus' humanity. Then we read, "A son is given." This refers to Jesus' eternal deity. As a child he was indeed born, but as a Son he has existed forever. Mi. 5:2 also makes it clear that Christ as the Son of God had no beginning, no mother. Here we read that the Holy One born in Bethlehem's stable was One "whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting"! Mary, then, had no part whatsoever in mothering the Godhead.
Again we find that this key Roman Catholic doctrine is built purely upon human speculation.
BigMack
I guess it depends on what you mean by "mass producing" and "distributing" them. The Douay-Rheims Bible is older than the KJV, so it can not be said that the Church had a reluctance to publish accurate vernacular translations.
Now would the Catholic Church just print up a bunch of Bibles and send them out willy-nilly to everyone, without following through on the command of Christ to go out and teach? I don't think so. Where there are teachers there can be Bibles.
SD
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