Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Amen Beckey, since I have been on these threads, I have began to really wonder if the bunch we talk to here are members of the same Catholic Church I have known throughout my lifetime.
Are there any photographs extant of your short-lived altar boy experience? ;o)
Becky
No. Shucks. The existence of those would be priceless now. I don't think my parish allowed for any images back then that weren't graven. :-)
Are you slamming protestants or the Holy Spirt with this post? Be very very careful.
Becky
I have no idea about the details of this survey ... who they questioned, how they were questioned, how the questions were worded, etc. All I can say is that we all need to pray for the lost in our own churches. Throughout the existence of this neverending thread, we have pointed fingers at the "wrongs" of the opposite side. How sad that we are so quick to point out the "faults" of anothers faith when we can't even see the shortcomings in our own.
So many "Christians" focus their efforts on people of other faiths in efforts to "save" them. Yet we fail to see that the person in the pew next to us on any given Sunday needs that saving grace more than the person we are trying to convert.
Our church leaders (that includes all denominations) need to address this situation seriously and vigorously ... and we need to do the same. No, we more than likely will not be able to reach everyone that doesn't hold to the teachings of Christianity, but we can certainly reach out and try. That starts within the confines of our own families. Families need to pray together, study together and attend regular services together. That's the starting point for turning our congregation around and getting it back on the right track.
May God bless us in this effort to revive His church.
Agreed. But from these threads I have discerned (maybe wrongly) that one of the reasons the catholic church believes they are "the" Chruch is becasue the are "united" in their beliefs. That one of the reasons they can point fingers at the "prostestants" and say they are wrong is because there are so many different denominations. I was just refuting that argument by showing that the catholics are no more united then the protestants,
1. What sort of prayer practices do you engage in?
2. Is fasting a part of your spiritual discipline? If so, what do you see its purpose as being?
3. How do you reconcile the apparent pacifism of the gospel message (the "turn the other cheek" thing) with the need for defense against aggression?
4. How do you reconcile the gospel's call to poverty with actual practice in a culture which focuses on material gain?
In the mornings I pray thanks for the blessings of th day before, for any special needs, and help through the day. Then through the day when new things pop up I try to say thanks or ask for help whenever.
2. Is fasting a part of your spiritual discipline? If so, what do you see its purpose as being?
No. Maybe I should though. Have to think on it.
3. How do you reconcile the apparent pacifism of the gospel message (the "turn the other cheek" thing) with the need for defense against aggression?
All through the OT the Jews went to war for God.
4. How do you reconcile the gospel's call to poverty with actual practice in a culture which focuses on material gain?
I don't believe the bible calls us to poverty. The verse says the "Love" of money is the root of evil, not money or material things themselves.
Becky
Picture this, if you will ... this is hypothetical, btw ... not a slam toward the Baptist faith. A Catholic Church has divisions within itself (among parishoners), and a Baptist Church has divisions among it's people. BUT ... the Baptist faith itself has many divisions. Which is more united? I'd still say that the CC is the more united, because if you look at the example I just laid out, you're looking at divisions among people in one faith as opposed to divisions among people of one division of another.
Now that I got that out of the way ... There is probably no monopoly by any faith on the amount of followers that don't adhere 100% to the teachings of the faith. Which takes me back to my previous post...
I pray the rosary on a weekly basis. I pray the Lord's Prayer on a daily basis. And I go one-on-one with my maker daily.
2. Is fasting a part of your spiritual discipline? If so, what do you see its purpose as being?
Occasionaly. I should probably practice this more often. I see the purpose of fasting as depriving myself of something in order to show God my sincerity about that which I am praying.
3. How do you reconcile the apparent pacifism of the gospel message (the "turn the other cheek" thing) with the need for defense against aggression?
Our God is a just God. Justice does need to be served. I think we all agree that Jesus was the picture of humility and turned the other cheek and even allowed himself to be killed. But remember what he did in the temple? He pretty much went on a tirade and knocked over tables, kicked people out, etc for turning His Father's house into a market. I'm sure there are many other examples of justice, but this one popped into my mind as I read your question.
4. How do you reconcile the gospel's call to poverty with actual practice in a culture which focuses on material gain?
God grants us what we need. Even if that means falling upon hard times. If it's needed for us to become closer to Him, he'll allow that. He gives me what me and my family need to survive. In the past, I have squandered those gifts and that has in turn made for some hard times lately, but we'll get through it. I've no desire to be ridiculously wealthy ... I just want to be able to live and to give my family a comfortable life. I'm not sure if that answers the question, but that's the way I feel about material wealth.
2)Fast for communion, rare occassions otherwise. Role in communion is obvious; fasting also serves to strengthen our spiritual aspect over our desires, increasing our freedom through restraint; it also increases gratitude for life.
3) You should always turn the other cheek if someone wishes to harm you unless to do so causes a greater harm. You also have an obligation to increase good and decrease evil. This may require other action: it should be done with skill and wisdom, and great carefulness, involving the least possible force or violence. But if someone wishes to harm you, know they have first harmed themselves and any response, no matter whether with force or not, should be done with compasssion. I believe the Church teaching on Just War is very wise and well structured.
4)Our culture (and many others) focus on material gain, or rather values material above other things - true. This value scale is false. It is a false allocation of value that can be demonstrated and taught as certainly as it can be shown that happiness is more valuable than unhappiness. I hope to be one who helps others learn what is of true value.
It helped me to be poor and happy and rich and miserable. Others may need other examples or instruction. It is not poverty or wealth that is the point of the teaching, but what you value and how those values are reflected in your dealings with God and your fellow creatures in this life.
Sounds good! ;o) I usually do my 'thanksgiving' prayer at the end of the day for that day's blessings, but otherwise my extemporaneous prayer is similar to yours.
All through the OT the Jews went to war for God.
Yes, but doesn't it seem that Jesus is teaching something new?
[38] "You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' (THE 'OT' TEACHING)
[39] But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; [40] and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; [41] and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. [42] Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. [43] "You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' [44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
In his sermon on the mount, Jesus uses "but I say to you" to introduce his interpretation on the Law. What he seems to be preaching here is a radical pacifism. Which was followed by the church for the first 300 years or so of the church. Martyrdom rather than "holy warriors". It wasn't until Constantine that the idea of the Christian Soldier really took hold.
I don't believe the bible calls us to poverty. The verse says the "Love" of money is the root of evil, not money or material things themselves.
It does say that about the "love of money". But consider this:
And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." (Mark 10:21)
Good point. Why didn't Jesus turn the other cheek here? (I ask this in all seriousness).
BTW "IF" this is a valid survey it also proves that what I have been saying, that the catholic church doctrine may not actually say what I was taught, but from this survey more catholics believe what I thought then they way the catholics on this thread do, which from my experience and from the catholics I know is correct.
Becky
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