The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

I don't think this will fit your definition of "faith alone" (could it be that a similar problem exists in how Catholics define faith alone and scripture alone?), however I found the description of faith vs. works and law vs. grace to be very amenable to this Protestant. More to come...

That is long. I will take a look at it. I do think that there will probably be a problem with definitions. Largely that some Protestants (like you) are probably very close to the Catholics in how we view things. Other Protestants are farther away and it is probably those extreme views that I find missing in history. Seriously, debating you is almost completely different than debating with many of the others here.

SD

[the808bass]

Have you ever wondered why these guys even give a hoot whether Mary had other children or not?

To be honest, this is not a major issue for me. I think the plain reading of some passages would seem to go against the idea of Mary having only one child. I don't think any of my doctrine rests on Mary having another child. However, the idea expressed by RobbyS, that Mary could not have other children or the Incarnation is void is a bit curious to me and I have a large problem with that.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Matthew 12;46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

By the way Dave even though I believe Jesus was refering to his spiritual family at the cross. The above scriptures is Jesus comparing his physical family to his spiritual family. Please address this.

[SoothingDave]

So were the Peter and Andrew real brothers or just kin?

I believe thay are both mentioned as being sons of someone (Zebedee?). The same person. That would imply real brotherhood (at least half brotherhood)

You'll notice that while Jesus is said to have brothers and sisters, no one ever says Mary is their mother. (Joseph might be their father...)

SD

[Havoc]

Which of the two statements do you not believe? Was Jesus not born of woman, or was Jesus not God?

The scripture you started out with is fine. The elaborations needlessly made on them via logic and reason turn them into an inferrance that Mary gave birth to God - which she did not. Which is the target of what I said. Such stupid statements as these are not in the Bible for a reason - chiefly because it isn't true.

[SoothingDave]

However, the idea expressed by RobbyS, that Mary could not have other children or the Incarnation is void is a bit curious to me and I have a large problem with that.

I don't think that's an orthodox statement. It would be a different reality than the one we have, but I don't think it would change who Jesus is.

What would be weird for advancing the idea of a Virgin Birth would be to point to the lady with 8 kids and say, "The first one, little Jesus, Virgin Birth, He was."

It is certainly easier to accept a Virgin Birth as an only child and especially if Mary was a consecrated virgin, as some think.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Also, there were words used in the Gospels to differentiate between brothers, sisters and kinfolk. Here's an example where the word "cousin" was used.

Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

[malakhi]

Have you ever wondered why these guys even give a hoot whether Mary had other children or not?

Good question. Guys, what difference does it make?

[Titanites]

As for 1 Corinthians, read all of it for context, then twist it to imply "brethren" or "brothers" are used in the same way as in Matthew 13. Good job!

Oh my. I apologize if you have the impression that my post was meant to show that "brethren" had the same meaning in both 1Cor and Matt 13. I was attempting to demonstrate, in a humorous example, that the word did not have the same meaning in each of these passages. I guess I need to be very careful around you folks, and type really slowly.

[Uri’el-2012]

XeniaSt> Berasheet bara Elohiem (Aleph Tav or Alpha Omega) .......... In the beginning G-d(s) the Alpha & Omega created from nothing the heaven and earth....... Do I read that right?
angelo> Close, but no cigar:
Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets.
"In the beginning God created heaven and earth."

Elohim is not properly translated 'God(s)'.
1125 posted on 10/18/01 10:38 PM Mountain by angelo

Sorry.
There were two questions in one posting.

1) There seems to be some confusion over Elohim by some commentators.
Could you illuminate the difference between the singular and plural endings.

2) I want to draw your attention to the untranslated aleph and tau between "G-d"and "the heaven".

This also occurs in Zechariah 12:10 between "look on me" and "whom they have pierced"

Tehillim (Psalm) 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

XeniaSt

[SoothingDave]

Which of the two statements do you not believe? Was Jesus not born of woman, or was Jesus not God?

The scripture you started out with is fine. The elaborations needlessly made on them via logic and reason turn them into an inferrance that Mary gave birth to God - which she did not.

Mary didn't give birth to God? I think you mean it gives an inference that Mary existed before God did, is a superior creature. Well, it is a chosen theological term that does not mean that, by definition.

If you wish to remain ignorant and keep other people ignorant by refusing to understand what a term means, that is your choice. That you can not indicate where the flaw in my logic is or point out which of the two supporting statememtns is false means that you must agree with the conclusion.

Which is the target of what I said. Such stupid statements as these are not in the Bible for a reason - chiefly because it isn't true.

Again, which isn't true or where is the flaw in the logic?

SD

[Titanites]

All modern "approved" versions use "Brother" in Matt 13:55.

Approved by whom?

[al_c]

A jar of Mel's Giant N.Y. Sour Dill Pickles.

LOL!!

[SoothingDave]

The above scriptures is Jesus comparing his physical family to his spiritual family. Please address this.

Pretty much what allend said. Family ties are nothing if they hold you back from God. It's almost like He could have said "call no one on earth your family member, for there is only one family in Heaven"

SD

[SoothingDave]

Good question. Guys, what difference does it make?

That's easy. It demonstrates how the Catholic Church completely disregards the clear meaning of Scripture.

Now why people can't grasp theotokos and what it means and does not mean is a better question.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Good question. Guys, what difference does it make?

I care because it makes a mockery of the Word of God. This thing ought not to be done.

[malakhi]

Steven: So were the Peter and Andrew real brothers or just kin?

SoothingDave: I believe thay are both mentioned as being sons of someone (Zebedee?). The same person. That would imply real brotherhood (at least half brotherhood)

James is called the son of Zebedee, and John is called his brother (Matthew 10:2). In Matthew 20 and 26, they are referred to as the "sons of Zebedee". Matthew 10:2 also calls Andrew the brother of Simon, but nowhere does it say that they have the same father. The only reference to the father of Simon is Matthew 16:17, where Jesus refers to him as "Simon bar-Jona". So the context of their being full brothers, half-brothers, or cousins is not clear. Although the pairing of Simon and Andrew with James and John (who were certainly brothers) in Matthew 10:2 is suggestive.

[SoothingDave]

Thanks for clearing (?) that up. I can see the advantages of monogamy here and can also see why a catch-all use of "brother" would come into play.

SD