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**BREAKING--3rd CASE OF ANTHRAX CONFIRMED!!!!!!!

Posted on 10/10/2001 5:09:20 PM PDT by newsperson999

now a criminal investagation...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
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To: _Jim
If you look at my postings from late last week, you will see I very quickly concluded from the information that this was probably biowarfare. Nevertheless, I have made no effort to get a vaccination or antibiotics, and I would still refuse to be vaccinated at this point, because I still think the risks from the anthrax vaccine are greater than the risks of exposure to anthrax -- and I live just outside D.C., and travel to and from work on the Metro every day. I am certainly not panicked.

But I do resent the government not telling me and everyone else the truth. I think I -- and most other people -- would make better decisions if we were told the truth.

By the way, I am a government employee. But I see it as part of my job to tell the truth to people outside the government who make inquiries. As a lawyer in an agency, I do have to field general inquiry duties one or two weeks a year, and I can't remember ever having lied to one of those outside inquirers. If somebody ordered me to lie, I would have a severe crisis of conscience.

181 posted on 10/10/2001 8:02:38 PM PDT by aristeides
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To: katana
Very interesting observations. You are correct that we as Americans react first as individuals, and secondarily as a group. We act as a collective when we perceive that the ends of the group are consistent with our personal view of what is necessary and right, and that group action can achieve our goals better than individual action. We do not just "do as we are told."
182 posted on 10/10/2001 8:04:49 PM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: aristeides
But I do resent the government not telling me and everyone else the truth.
THIS continues to be mouthed as some sort of magical mantra - pray tell, what conceivably *aren't* they telling us?

I aked a poster eatlier - how many hundreds are currently in hospitals succumbed with Anthrax that we haven't been told about?

- and how many of the thousands that *they* know have been sworn to complete secrecy on this matter?

I contend that *they* are keeping us informed and notified just the moment that *they* become sure of the facts after relevant tests are done; cultures are grown; etc ...

183 posted on 10/10/2001 8:11:29 PM PDT by _Jim
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To: Jesse
You seem to be very well versed on this subject. Could I trouble you to answer three questions for me?

Question No. 1: Once an anthrax spore finds a warm, moist spot and germinates, what is its period of effectiveness? For how long is it able to cause an infection?

Question No. 2: Once a germinated anthrax spore has shot its wad (lost its effectiveness), is it done for, dead, kaput? Or can it re-encapsulate, re-germintate, and re-infect?

Question No. 3: Since the spores germinate in warm, moist places, is airborne anthrax more likley in cold OR dry places (New York, Florida?) because the spores would not have germinated until they became lodged in someone's lungs? Conversely, would spores released into the air in Houston or New Orleans in the summer be likely to germinate in the atmosphere and therefore unable to be breathed into the lungs or cause an infection after being inhaled?

If anyone else knows the answer to these questions, please respond.

Thanking you in advance.
184 posted on 10/10/2001 8:12:25 PM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: ALOHA RONNIE
"..ANTHRAX strain developed in the 1950's...was stolen from the Dept. of Agriculture Labs in Iowa in the Mid-1990's...per News Reports."

And this makes it klintons? I hate that SOB, but I can't even make that stretch!

185 posted on 10/10/2001 8:14:35 PM PDT by K7TNW
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To: Iwo Jima
You know, I didn't see a news conference where Tommy Thompson referred to the anthrax case of Bob Stephens. I did see a clip of him testifying before some congressional committee and saying that he was 100% certain that govt agencies were prepared for any biological attack.

I thought his remark was very stupid. Apparently so did Senator Robert Byrd, who told him so outright. I never agree w/Robert Byrd so I had to blink when he said what he said!

As I have followed the anthrax case in FL (which is very intently since I remember vividly being scared to death by my veterinary professors about it) the initial response of the "authorities" was that it was likely a naturally occuring case and not to worry.

Either tests they did on the bacteria taken from Stephens tipped them that it appeared to be genetically engineered, OR through their going ahead with natural follow up in checking out the environment and doing nasal swabs on co-workers, they discovered the guy from the mailroom had an (more than one?) anthrax spore isolated from his nasal swab. They also found the anthrax spore(s?) on Stephens' keyboard. There was this giant puckering sound and they realized that this was likely NOT a naturally occuring, typically isolated, case of anthrax in a human.

The media and the FL govt and US govt officials who are doing the talking ARE doing a terrible job of disseminating cogent and helpful information. Fortunately, the CDC folks who are doing the actual investigation, do know what they are doing and will NOT put up w/govt bullshit.

Believe me, Iwo Jima, there are too many folks who know enough to know when to put on the hip waders, if you get my drift, and we will keep their bureaucratic feet to the fire 'til we get the straight answers. There are many good and decent bio-knowledgeable folks out here in the general population who will NOT let the govt snow us on this one.

Endeavor

186 posted on 10/10/2001 8:16:12 PM PDT by Endeavor
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To: Jesse
He's actually Ken Alibek. I read his extremely scary book about the Soviet germ warfare program he directed that was producing 80 tons of anthrax spores a year. Here's a link to the Amazon listing:

Biohazard by Ken Alibek

187 posted on 10/10/2001 8:22:33 PM PDT by TheMole
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To: Storm Orphan
bump
188 posted on 10/10/2001 8:26:25 PM PDT by Jolly Rodgers
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To: aristeides
But I do resent the government not telling me and everyone else the truth.

I doubt if any single statement issued by the authorities has been a lie, at least when narrowly constructed, but clearly the policy on this has to been to minimize the possibility for panic and economic disruptions even if that means more deaths in the short term and a greater chance that the terrorists will be able to pull off some kind of massive bio attack against a complacent populace. It's basically the same policy that the government has taken in general with respect to the Islamic terrorist threat, and one would have to admit that his paid off reasonably well -- after all, we only had one massive Islaminc terrorist attack so far this year.

189 posted on 10/10/2001 8:32:29 PM PDT by Clinton's a rapist
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To: Jolly Rodgers
I'm shooting any b%$#d who comes to my front door. /sarcasm
190 posted on 10/10/2001 8:35:07 PM PDT by Storm Orphan
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To: ALOHA RONNIE
Ok!
191 posted on 10/10/2001 8:37:27 PM PDT by goldilucky
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To: Clinton's a rapist
I'm sorry, but I think your comments are unverified and inaccurate. The govt officials I've heard on various news reports, granted, have not been the most helpful, but I do NOT think they have lied. And, I do not think they are purposely acting to encourage more deaths. The spokespersons are typical bureaucrats.

They have actually been very up front with the public - whether that is out of purposeful good intentions or a ferocious media, I do not know and am NOT about to speculate, as you seem to be willing to do. Get a grip on it, buddy. They are doing their best and will continue to do so.

Endeavor

192 posted on 10/10/2001 8:39:51 PM PDT by Endeavor
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To: Endeavor
The govt officials I've heard on various news reports, granted, have not been the most helpful, but I do NOT think they have lied.

Reread my post, that's what I said.

And, I do not think they are purposely acting to encourage more deaths. The spokespersons are typical bureaucrats.

Reread my post, that's what I said.

193 posted on 10/10/2001 8:42:36 PM PDT by Clinton's a rapist
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To: ALOHA RONNIE
".CNBC now reporting that this strain of ANTHRAX was stolen from ~CLINTON's~ Dept. of Agriculture Iowa Labs...

You've got to be shitting me! Clinton's in on this one too? This Clinton guy is one evil SOB!

194 posted on 10/10/2001 8:45:33 PM PDT by goldilucky
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To: TheMole
Thanks, I read his book. If you liked it, you'll "love" Germs...takes up where he left off and fills in our gaps. For example, I often wondered what the Russians did with their tons of spores to destroy them...apparently, they took them out to Vozrozhdehiye Island in the Aral sea, the same place they did the biowar experiments, dug holes and buried the spores, then poured bleach solution over them.
195 posted on 10/10/2001 8:45:35 PM PDT by Jesse
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To: TKEman
Keep us informed. Star Trek Enterprise is on right now, and I've got to have some entertainment/break from the war.

Hey, a guy has to have his diversions. Sub-commander T'Pol is so... fascinating. ;^)

I detected a Classic Trek plot revisited, albeit with fancy visual FX. The cave scene was reminiscent of scenes from "The Cloud Miners", where the invisible "Xenite" gas made people irrational and violent. Well, nostalgia sells...

196 posted on 10/10/2001 8:50:15 PM PDT by Cloud William
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To: ezoeni4
Punctuation is a friend. Try it.
197 posted on 10/10/2001 8:51:41 PM PDT by mommadooo3
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To: Clinton's a rapist
Agreed, those aren't the parts of your post that I think are out of line. These are:

"...but clearly the policy on this has to been to minimize the possibility for panic and economic disruptions even if that means more deaths in the short term and a greater chance that the terrorists will be able to pull off some kind of massive bio attack against a complacent populace. It's basically the same policy that the government has taken in general with respect to the Islamic terrorist threat, and one would have to admit that his paid off reasonably well -- after all, we only had one massive Islaminc terrorist attack so far this year. "

NO ONE wants to panic the public unnecessarily. These people are being prudent and taking care to get it right and then get it out. That, I can appreciate. I do wish they were better at it, but they are what they are.

Everybody is nervous after the events of September 11th, and rightfully so. The govt officials on the FL case are making their discoveries known. Some of this testing (genetic/culture/swab-organism identification - remember their are something like 700 employees they're looking at) take time to complete.

I apologize if I took your remarks in a different way than you intended. However, as I read them, I find them inaccurate and inflammatory - the last thing we need right now.

Regards

Endeavor

198 posted on 10/10/2001 8:53:28 PM PDT by Endeavor
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To: Iwo Jima
In answer to your questions, what I know is: 1) A single spore, in theory, could go on forever. Think of a spore as a sleeping, heavily protected, encapsulated bacteria. It will stay dormant until the right combination of humidity, pH, and temperature, O2 content and perhaps some other environmental factors cause it to "wake up" and turn back into a bacteria. What happens after it wakes up depends on where it is. If there is a lot of food for the bacteria, then it will divide into 2, then 4, then 8, etc. As long as there are nutrients, the proper pH, a lack of competition from other bacteria, antibiotics, or white blood cells or antibodies, the bacteria can keep growing and dividing. They produce toxins, which are what actually kill a person.

Once the bacteria start running out of food, or environmental conditions become averse to it(host dies, temperature decreases, etc) the bacteria instead of continuing to divide form spores in their cells. When the bacteria dies, the spore is left behind and waits for cycle to begin again.

Spores released into atmosphere could germinate, for example if it starts to rain and temperature is right. But unless they land somewhere where their is food, they will die, and probably won't be able to form spores because they have to have food to make spores.

Spores are like fish eggs...billions are formed, most never wake up and when in the air are destroyed by ultraviolet light of the sun or go to water or soil. If they do wake up, they may die in a couple of generations because of inadequate food or such.

But it only takes a few thousand to overwhelm the body's defenses and achieve reproductive success.

Airborne anthrax, by which I assume you mean used as a weapon, might survive in cold very well...but since everybody is inside when cold, the spores would likely fall to the ground and be bound up in the soil, where they might germinate in low numbers but not cause infection.

Ideal day for anthrax bioweapon use would probably be light breeze, no rain, low humidity without rain(to avoid clumping of spores to each other), inversion layer to trap spores in air. In other words, apart from inversion, a nice day.

199 posted on 10/10/2001 9:02:59 PM PDT by Jesse
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To: coloradan
"Anthrax is a bacteria, not an herb! I told them at the rollout meeting..."

"No, you didn't."

"Well, I thought it real hard...."

200 posted on 10/10/2001 9:07:35 PM PDT by steve-b
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