OUR LADY AND ISLAM: HEAVEN’S PEACE PLAN

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/OLISLAM.HTM ^ | September - October 2001 | Fr Ladis J. Cizik, Blue Army National Executive Director

[RnMomof7]

We know what he did. but there is no emptier word than "necessary." Does it mean "No other choice?" Mary had no choice, Jesus had no choice? Did Judas have no choice? Then why not St. Judas, who only did his duty?

Wow Robby we are really on different pages..but let us look just at the one "necessity" that set us apart from Islam and other Pagan faiths

Yes Jesus was necessay,and no he had no choice.He had to come.The Father planned the means of salvation,the Son had to come,He had to be obedient to the will and plan of the Father.

God is always true,God does not lie,God said He would send a savior.The only one that could save fallen man was God himself.

God can not lie,He promised all thougout the OT that He would come and He did.

Jesus did not want to die.He was frightened.But He had no choice..yes Robby it was necessary to reconcile God to his creation there was no other way.

Mark 14 35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Do you think the Father took pleasure in this?

Luke 38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

Robby this seems to be your question..If you can for one moment not understand that indeed the cross was necessary

It was the only way a Holy God could bring salvation and judgement on sinful man

This came to my mind as I was typing this,and so I will share it with you

Jesus had just told a parable to the crowd..the parables were not general teaching tools,they were like a secret code .They were the way Jesus reveiled the mysteries of the kingdom to His chosen followers and so Jesus speaks

Mark 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Robby to understand the necessity of the cross you have to go back and read the OT,read Isaiah.God promised,He put it in writting. He made a contract (covenant) with man.He is Faithful and true.Jesus had to die on the cross it was a necessity..

Robby, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.Acts 4:12

[iranger]

Ya know, the USA is often disparaged by countries such as France & Germany that share many of its common values though they are loath to admit those common values. They are quick to claim their superiority of culture and morality, but its a lot like pissing into the wind. As fine as these countries are, they pale in almost any comparison. Clearly they have not experienced anything close to the success of America. That is reason we are under attack today.

As it is for America, so it is for The Catholic Church. Part time theologians and self proclaimed intellectuals continue to spew their venum, but alas, it is like pissing into the wind. The only thing they succeed in doing is soiling themselves.

Nothing you can say changes any of this. Their success speaks for itself. They are the New York Yankees of Christianity. I remain a die hard Twins fan, but I tip my cap to them. No sense in being sore loser.

[CCWoody]

As it is for America, so it is for The Catholic Church.

America, founded by Reformers with Biblical principals!

BTW, Rome proclaimed its position against the Church first on this thread:

The Islamic belief in the virginity of Mary puts to shame the heretical beliefs of those who call themselves Christian, while denying the perpetual virginity of Mary. Make no mistake about it, there is a very special relationship between the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Moslems!

I stand on the Rock. I have quoted the Bible. You complain! You will learn in the Day of the Lord's vengence that I am right: (Revelation 19)

And I saw Heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written that no man knew, but He Himself. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His name is called, The Word of God. And the armies which were in Heaven, clothed in fine linen white and clean, followed Him upon white horses. And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword with which He shall smite the nations, and He shall rule them with a rod of iron; and He treadeth the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[CCWoody]

We know what he did. but there is no emptier word than "necessary." Does it mean "No other choice?" Mary had no choice, Jesus had no choice? Did Judas have no choice? Then why not St. Judas, who only did his duty?

I have been thinking about the wierd path of posting you have been on and the Bible has something to say about what you are thinking:

But when He had turned about and looked on His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get thee behind Me, Satan; for thou savorest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men."

[RnMomof7]

I thought you were one of those. I bet you are a barrel of laughs to be around. Good luck to you. It goes without saying that you are included in my prayers for those filled gloom and dispair

LOL I have been told I am not "serious enough" about spiritual matters ,and now you assume I am doom and gloom

Beliving that God has a plan is only doom and gloom if you are unprepared to meet your maker..

I am alot of fun,I love life,and smiles ,I love God and I trust Him.

America is in spiritual trouble,now you can close your eyes and pretend all is fine and that somehow God hasnt noticed.Or you can know that He knows and has a plan.

[CCWoody]

Somebody with a better knowledge of the Church history may be along and take your question.

[iranger]

An America founded by a full range of Christians and even a Jew or two....shhhhhhh....

So I still don't get your beef. Why are you so obsessed with the Catholics? Sure they are a little quirky, but hey so is Pat Robertson. But I'd rather have them on my team than Louis Farrakan.

[The_Reader_David]

Indeed, we Orthodox agree with you that all the saved are saints. The distinction between the Orthodox canon of saints and all the saints is that we specifically venerate those among the saved whose glorification God in His mercy has revealed to the Church. How their glorification is revealed varies. Martyrs are obvious (St. Herman of Alaska upon learning of the death of an Orthodox Aleut at the hands of the Spanish in California, immediately asked his name. "Peter" was the reply. St. Herman turned to the iconostasis and said "Holy Peter, newly martyred, pray to Christ God that our souls be saved.") other have their glorification revealed through signs and wonders associated with their relics, or by the way in which their lives and writings manifestly show forth God's grace.

[RnMomof7]

Revelation reveals the love of God for those that are marytred.....

Revelation 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

Revelation 20: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[CCWoody]

So I still don't get your beef. Why are you so obsessed with the Catholics?

I'm not, but the RC church is the topic of this thread:

OUR LADY AND ISLAM: HEAVEN’S PEACE PLAN

If this was a LDS thread, I'd be talking about the LDS church.

[iranger]

"America is in spiritual trouble,now you can close your eyes and pretend all is fine and that somehow God hasnt noticed.Or you can know that He knows and has a plan."

Of course America has its problems. But that is to be expected in any human endeavor. But I believe humanity is better off today than it was 1000 years ago and America is better off today than it was 100 years ago. There is so much good in our country and in this world, its important to not let the clouds of dispair cloud our vision. Let there be Light. Where there is Light, there is reason for hope and optimism.

[Jerry_M]

"OK. Where is this visible Church that has been in continuous existence since Pentacost and has been "hunted and persecuted by Roman iron and fire when she would not bow to Rome"? I need a name. Or a street address. Or even a telephone number...

There have been local, visible, manifestations of the Church throughout Church history. Roman Catholics tried for over 1600 years to stamp them out, but they have persevered nonetheless, and have grown and prospered (Jesus stated that the "gates of hell" would not prevail against them.)

You could pick-up a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs to get a record of their existence.

As far as a name, street address, or telephone number, may I suggest that you look in your local Yellow Pages, under the heading: "Churches, Baptist".

[iranger]

"I'm not, but the RC church is the topic of this thread:"

You remind me of my cousin Mable. She's got to stick her nose into everyone's business, tell them that THEY ARE WRONG. Her problem was that everyone told her she was "so smart" when she was growing up. She believed them. They were just being nice. Let the Catholics have their fun, they're harmless. Last I checked, they weren't lacing envelopes with anthrax.

[The_Reader_David]

Perhaps CCWoody is thinking of the Orthodox Church, and remembering the abortive seige of Constantinople by the First Crusade, its sack by the Fourth, the forcible replacement of Orthodox bishops with Latin bishops by the Crusaders, and the Teutonic Knights' invasion of Holy Mother Russia. :-)=== (smiley with an Athonite beard--there are folk on this thread who haven't seen it before)

Nah, can't be.

Incidentally, I was very pleased that the Pope's apology in Greece was broad enough to cover all of that, not just the Sack of Constantinople.

[CCWoody]

Let the Catholics have their fun, they're harmless.

I'm not talking about Catholics, but the RC church. There is a difference. And the RC church is not harmless. The RC church seems to proud to be in bed with Islam. Do you not see that this is not harmless?

[RnMomof7]

As far as a name, street address, or telephone number, may I suggest that you look in your local Yellow Pages, under the heading: "Churches, Baptist".

LOL......There seems to be confusion between the visible church and reliance on the buildings,membership,rules and tradition...and the invisible church

Revelation 3 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

[CCWoody]

CCWoody is thinking of the Orthodox Church

I know next to nothing about the Orthodox church; nothing of her doctrine.

[iranger]

"I'm not talking about Catholics, but the RC church. There is a difference. And the RC church is not harmless. The RC church seems to proud to be in bed with Islam. Do you not see that this is not harmless?"

The RC Church has demonstrated during my lifetime and especially under JPII to be on the right side of innumerable issues. In my book, they've earned the right to a benefit of doubt. Before I went around with accusations that they "are in bed with Islam," I would ask a representative of the Church for an explanation as to what their official position is. Just as their position was over stem cells, I'm sure it is amply justified from a philosophical/theological standpoint. It could even be that this is not a complete explanation of the Church's view. As I've found with most of their teachings, there are many complexities involved which I personally find problematic. I prefer non-political straight forward talk. There seems to be an effort by some elements within the RCC to pander leftward in an effort to not offend. I suspect "these elements" may be at work in this instance. Overall, I still say they can share the trench with me in our battle against the evil doers of this world.

[CCWoody]

No need to dig deep. See my post #77 and another #104 for previously covered material:

841 The Churches relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; those profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day,"

The Islamic belief in the virginity of Mary puts to shame the heretical beliefs of those who call themselves Christian, while denying the perpetual virginity of Mary. Make no mistake about it, there is a very special relationship between the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Moslems!

Acknowledging the Creator without a saving faith in Christ is entirely damnable:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe -- and tremble.

Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved."

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son, that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent Him.

I would actually have more respect for Rome if she had maintained her earlier position that as THE Church anybody outside of her could not obtain salvation. But, like so many things, she has revealed herself as a wide gateway. By taking the position that she has, she is essentially saying that membership in THE Church is unimportant.

[RobbyS]

??What will we never know Robby? Did I miss something? The answers to almost every question of importance, especially what is in the hearts of other persons.