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Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law (Pledge Banned in Madison, WI Schools)
Wisconsin State Journal ^ | 10/8/01 | Doug Erickson Education reporter

Posted on 10/09/2001 7:02:25 AM PDT by Jean S

Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law, schools told

The Madison School Board barred schools on Monday from using the Pledge of Allegiance as a way to comply with a new state law that requires a daily patriotism dose.

Instead, schools can use only the national anthem - and then only instrumental versions of it. No words.

The 3-2 board vote came after several parents and teachers complained that the pledge, which contains the line "one nation, under God," is a religious oath that doesn't belong in public schools. Others criticized the pledge for promoting nationalism and militarism.

Board President Calvin Williams, who voted with the majority, said the board's action is the "least intrusive and least offensive" way to comply with the law.

"We've chosen a reasonable compromise that preserves freedom of expression on both ends of the spectrum and doesn't trample on anyone's rights," he said.

The law, which took effect Sept. 1, requires schools to offer the pledge or anthem daily in grades 1 to 12. Madison implemented the law last week, with Superintendent Art Rainwater leaving it up to each school to decide whether the pledge or anthem would be offered and in what format.

The heaviest criticism has been aimed at those elementary schools where the pledge is being read over the public address system. Although the law says students cannot be forced to participate, critics said children have little choice but to listen to it when it's broadcast throughout the school.

"What we're doing here is opening up a very slippery slope," said Sally Franz, an educational assistant at Cherokee Middle School and one of six people who criticized the law Monday. "Indoctrination leads to totalitarianism, and we're approaching that moment."

Board member Bill Keys' motion instructs schools to broadcast an instrumental version of the anthem at a time deemed appropriate by administrators. This option will allow dissenting students to opt out less conspicuously, reducing the chances for harassment, he said.

Williams and Carol Carstensen agreed with Keys. Carstensen said the motion in no way prohibits the teaching of the pledge for educational reasons or the singing of the anthem in music class. And students can say the pledge on their own during the school day, she said.

Ruth Robarts and Shwaw Vang opposed the motion, with both saying it doesn't go far enough to protect the rights of dissenters. "It's a step in the right direction, but it doesn't remove the coerciveness of the classroom situation," Robarts said. She wanted the anthem to be offered before or after classes.

Ray Allen and Juan Jose Lopez were absent. Reached later, Lopez said he opposes the motion.

"I would not have voted to ban the Pledge of Allegiance," he said. "We live in the United States of America, and people should be given the choice."


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
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To: Congressman Billybob
It was written not only by a socialist, but by a devoted and energetic promoter of socialism. He saw that to get his uptopian socialist ideal in the general American mind, he had to remove the Founding Ideals by hiding them behind a bigger, easier to grasp, simpler single concept -- the Flag. In other words, "pay no attention to the ideas behind the curtain, for isn't the curtain, itself, so beatiful and worthy.". The Flag is used to obscure the ideals, its worship obliterates them.
81 posted on 10/09/2001 8:31:02 AM PDT by bvw
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To: JeanS
Why is it that if somebody gets p!ssed about sex education and handing out condoms and sh!t like that, nobody gives a sh!t, but let one or two parents start blathering about patriotism and militarism etc etc etc, and everybody buckles... Hmmmm...
82 posted on 10/09/2001 8:33:29 AM PDT by maxwell
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To: JeanS
This is to the flag! It's not even a religious matter. Are those people sick of doing politics while they should educate about our nation. New citizens are required to pledge, for goodness sakes.
83 posted on 10/09/2001 8:33:53 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: bvw
"The pledge was writen by a socialist to create a socialist country, bigfoot is real, aliens really do abduct people, and barcodes are from the antichrist."

Quit all the preaching, and start freeping the leftist in WI that have banned the pledge and thelyrics to the national anthem in their schools.

"God Bless The USA!"
84 posted on 10/09/2001 8:36:44 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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To: jgrubbs
I forgot my tag on my previous post.
85 posted on 10/09/2001 8:37:59 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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Comment #86 Removed by Moderator

To: JeanS
Freeped the Govenor, Thanks JeanS

Eagles Up, Freep em Good!!

87 posted on 10/09/2001 8:38:45 AM PDT by FreedomWarrior
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To: jgrubbs
...my < / sarcasm > tag.
88 posted on 10/09/2001 8:39:12 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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To: jgrubbs
If only you and everybody else were so motivated to get the US Constitution, the Declaration taught more in the schools. All you all are settling for far, far less than you should be.

They'll allow the Pledge, the pressure is so great, but the founding ideals will continue to be ignored. The socialists will feed you your wonderful flag cake. You children, however, will not learn what that flag once stood for. They already have, and will continue to associate that very same flag, with the ideals of socialism.

Through the daily "pledge" they will learn to trivialize oaths, and thus trivialize the oath of contract that our very liberty is built on.

89 posted on 10/09/2001 8:46:12 AM PDT by bvw
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To: JeanS
This just reinforces my belief that we should put all international business on hold, and direct our resources toward cleaning up the cesspool right here at home. These are not honest disagreements, they're a blatent attempt to undermine America and the American way of life (sound like the Taliban?). The ACLU has similar goals.

I hope the community flames them good. Of course, I'll be putting pen to paper to do my part.

90 posted on 10/09/2001 8:47:52 AM PDT by Paulie
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To: LouD
I wish you were right - But Madison is further left than Berkeley...

I disagree. I have been to Berkeley and am an alum of UW. No city or campus is further left than Berkeley.

91 posted on 10/09/2001 8:49:22 AM PDT by wi jd
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To: bvw
Yeah, sure.

Flags have always been a symbol and ours was a symbol created long before socialism was anything but a whimsy. We don't worship the flag the vision that Keyes had of the flag flying still victorious was why it was mentioned but the important part of the pledge was to the nation "for which it stands. One nation, indivisible with liberty and justice for all." That be some real socialism all right.

92 posted on 10/09/2001 8:53:22 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit
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To: JeanS
comply with a new state law that requires a daily patriotism dose.

Its worth more if you're forced to do it. That way, on the day one kid refuses, everyone gets to learn what america is really all about.

93 posted on 10/09/2001 8:57:29 AM PDT by gfactor
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To: JeanS
Instead, schools can use only the national anthem - and then only instrumental versions of it. No words.

No words!!! Is Madison in enemy hands, or what? Perhaps the Governor ought to declare Martial Law in Madison, and send in the National Guard to take over the schools, until a Board can be found that is not afraid to give verbal expression of loyalty.

I am only half kidding. How did the people of Wisconsin ever allow their State capital to become a nest of subversives? I would certainly hope that the last local school levy has passed in such a community, until there is a 180 degree change!

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

94 posted on 10/09/2001 8:57:56 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: bvw
I totaly agree with you that the US Constitution, the Declaration need to be taught more in the schools. I think this also needs to be taught at home, too many parents leave it up to the schools to teach their children.

I do also believe we need to teach our children to love the American flag, to say the pledge with pride, knowing what their country was founded on.

The tune to Amazing grace was written as a old bar song, but we still sing it in church, the pledge may have been written by a socialist, but if we make sure our children, and adults for that matter, are educated on the US Constitution, the Declaration, and American history, law and govenrment, we can say the pledge with pride.
95 posted on 10/09/2001 8:58:51 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Hey, I like the Anthem with the great FS Keyes' lyrics! Keyes' words ring true and deep. Hard to sing, but grand to hear a great voice sing it.
96 posted on 10/09/2001 9:03:49 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Brookhaven
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand Between their loved homes and the war's desolation! Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: "In God is our trust." And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Thank you for posting the Star Spangled Banner in its entirety. I attended a public High School, where the Principal always required the singing of both the first and fourth verses (above). It is the Fourth that really captures the message--the spirit of the original Americans. Everyone ought to take a moment and sing the verse to themselves. It really stirs the blood, does it not. I wonder what the Madison school board would do if patriotic students decided to sing the words, despite the School Board's sick edict?! Anyone have any ideas how to get the idea started?

William Flax

97 posted on 10/09/2001 9:08:57 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: JeanS
"The Madison School Board barred schools on Monday from using the Pledge of Allegiance as a way to comply with a new state law that requires a daily patriotism dose."

"Others criticized the pledge for promoting nationalism and militarism."

We need to start playing a major round of "Spot The Loony" here.

Are you kidding this should just be the start! Only these jerks could confuse Patriotism with Fascism.

They are obviously questioning the basis of the new state law by half _ssing it.

98 posted on 10/09/2001 9:09:35 AM PDT by avg_freeper
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To: jgrubbs
The National Anthem is also a bar song tune ... hard to believe, considering its vast note range, but that is what I remember.

One of the major problems I have with the pledge of allegiance, is that I take, and think a good number of folks should take, pledges and oaths seriously. Why repeat a pledge you have already agreed to? Wasn't the first adequate. or are you not to be trusted? A repeat of a pledge is a pledge in vain, and we should avoid vain pledges and oaths -- if we even undertand what a pledge or an oath means.

99 posted on 10/09/2001 9:11:03 AM PDT by bvw
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Comment #100 Removed by Moderator


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